[EastYorkTTCFan]

Too bad the “second generation” Presto machines removed the driver being able to do anything with the machine. Still a huge mistake in my opinion. I still wonder if one of the reasons to do so was to remove the need to train all bus drivers to operate the console. Since the TTC is the largest agency, Presto/Metrolinx would have needed a lot of funds to train such a large workforce.

I think the TTC didn't want to have the operator have to do anything to the Presto card readers because of how with the new streetcars they don't interact with the public at all., plus they have them on all doors of the buses as well instead of just the front like all of the other transit agencies.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I think the TTC didn't want to have the operator have to do anything to the Presto card readers because of how with the new streetcars they don't interact with the public at all., plus they have them on all doors of the buses as well instead of just the front like all of the other transit agencies.

Are you saying local transit in 905 probably won’t have Proof of Payment anytime soon?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Are you saying local transit in 905 probably won’t have Proof of Payment anytime soon?

Do they really need it, don't forget the TTC has buses entering fare paid zones whereas other agencies only enter them if they are picking up inside of a TTC station

 

[JasonParis]

As I suspected, fare paid zones are going to become irrelevant with the 2 hour transfer. You have to tap on even if you’re boarding a streetcar or bus from within a station.
View attachment 154704

So, if I were to enter Bathurst Station with my Presto card and then walk over to the 511 Bathurst car in the loop, would I tap-in on the streetcar too? Even though I tapped into the station a minute prior?

Correct.
Here's an example. $3 charge on TTC. Followed by the usual $5.30 tap on to GO 10 minutes later (at Danforth). But when I tapped off at Exhibition I was credited $1.78, instead of the usual $0.28
View attachment 157088
Here's the same GO trip without the preceding TTC tap (drove to the station instead), when the tap off is just a credit of $0.28
View attachment 157089

I hate that Presto can't even spell GO Transit correctly.

 

[robmausser]

So, if I were to enter Bathurst Station with my Presto card and then walk over to the 511 Bathurst car in the loop, would I tap-in on the streetcar too? Even though I tapped into the station a minute prior?


I hate that Presto can't even spell GO Transit correctly.

No, only if you are using the station as a transfer point.

Its not that difficult. All you have to think is "am I transferring?"

If the answer is yes, you tap. Always.

 

[JasonParis]

Although, I assume it wouldn't really matter if I did a rogue tap anyway on the streetcar?

 

[steveintoronto]

TTC themselves have claimed it's not necessary for Presto billing, but for their own route usage details that you tap on every change.

Here's their online blurb:

Available to PRESTO card customers only.
How it works:

• Tap your PRESTO card on a card reader when you enter a subway station or board a vehicle.
• Your fare will be deducted and a transfer will be applied to your card. Your transfer is valid for two hours.
• Hop on and off the system or switch directions at any point in your journey.
• Tap your PRESTO card on a reader each time you enter a subway station and when you board a bus or streetcar. As long as you’re within two hours from your first tap, you won’t be charged another fare.

• https://www.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/PRESTO/Two-Hour_Transfer.jsp

Very ambiguous.

[...]
Under the new policy, Presto card users can take any number of trips, in any direction, for two hours after they tap their card to pay a fare. After the two hours are up, riders will be charged another fare the next time they tap their card.
[...]
Additionally, Brown said the electronic fare card allows the TTC to “accurately validate” when someone enters or re-enters the system within the two-hour time frame. Entering a station, then it

Why will riders still have to tap their Presto cards when they transfer?

Although payment is only deducted from the Presto card the first time it’s tapped during the two-hour window, the TTC says that riders must continue to tap their cards each time they board a new vehicle.
[...]
Brown said this is in part because by riders using their Presto cards at every phase of their journey the TTC can collect valuable data that helps it understand travel patterns and aids in service planning.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...bout-the-ttcs-new-2-hour-transfer-policy.html

Staff can say what they like. Until written into the Fare Bylaw, the demand is meaningless in a legal sense.

Here's the fare section of the present TTC Bylaw:

2. Requirement to Pay Fare - Conditions of Use
2.1 No person shall travel or attempt to travel on the transit system or enter a fare paid area, or attempt to enter a fare paid area without paying the appropriate fare:

a) Where the amount of the fare charged for passage on the transit system or entry to a fare paid area is disputed, the passenger shall pay the amount requested by a proper authority;

b) A passenger who refuses to pay the amount of fare requested by a proper authority shall be refused passage on the transit system or into the fare paid area.

2.2 No person shall, unless otherwise set out in the conditions of use:

a) in any way alter, change or recreate any fare media, other than an employee or agent of the TTC authorized to do so;

b) travel or attempt to travel on the transit system with fare media that has been altered, changed, recreated in any way by a person other than an employee or agent of the TTC authorized to do so;

c) in any way alter, change, recreate any identification card or photo identification card issued by or on behalf of the TTC, other than an employee or agent of the TTC authorized to do so;

d) travel or attempt to travel on the transit system with any identification card or photo identification card that has been altered, changed, recreated in any way by any person other than an employee or agent of the TTC authorized to do so.

2.3 Fare media shall be:

a) valid for the period as indicated on the fare media; and

b) valid in accordance with the conditions of use of the fare media and as set out in this by-law.

2.4 Any identification card or photo identification card issued by or on behalf of the TTC shall be:

a) valid for the period as indicated on the identification card or photo identification card; and

b) valid in accordance with the conditions of use of the identification card or photo identification card and as set out in this by-law.

2.5 Fare media, an identification card or a photo identification card issued by or on behalf of the TTC remains the property of the TTC and is subject to confiscation or cancellation, without refund, by a proper authority if the holder of the fare media, identification card or photo identification card:

a) causes damage to TTC property; or

b) fails to comply with the conditions of use of the fare media, identification card or photo identification.

2.6 When requested to do so by a proper authority, a person travelling on the transit system shall immediately surrender for inspection the fare media, an identification card or photo identification card under which the person is travelling.

2.7 Unless travelling on a Proof-of-Payment route, Section 2.6 does not apply to a person who has paid a fare using cash, ticket or token.

2.8 It is a term and condition of each fare media issued by the TTC or on behalf of the TTC and for every ride on the transit system that:

a) the TTC and its employees and agents are not liable to passengers for lost or stolen fare media;

b) the TTC and its employees and agents are not liable for delays or cancellations of any kind caused by any reason;

c) the TTC and its employees and agents shall have the right, whenever operating circumstances require it, to transfer a passenger from one vehicle to another vehicle; and

d) the TTC, its employees and agents are not responsible for loss of or damage to property of passengers carried onto the transit system.

2.9 Operators of a TTC vehicle are not permitted to sell fare media or make change. Subway collectors and other TTC employees selling fare media are not required to change bills of a higher denomination than $100.00 Canadian or $20.00 American. Any person refusing to tender a bill of $100.00 Canadian or less or of $20.00 American or less shall be deemed to be refusing to pay a fare and shall not be entitled entry into the transit system, a TTC vehicle, or any fare paid area.

2.10 No person paying a fare using cash, ticket or token, shall be entitled to more than one transfer.

2.11 No person paying a fare using a form of fare media not mentioned in Section 2.10 shall be entitled to a transfer.

2.12 No person shall use, or attempt to use a transfer unless the transfer has been issued to that person upon payment of a fare media in accordance with Section 2.10.

2.13 No person shall sell, exchange or give away a transfer unless otherwise authorized by the TTC.

2.14 No person shall sell or attempt to sell any form of fare media while on TTC property unless otherwise authorized by the TTC.
[...]

http://www.ttc.ca/Riding_the_TTC/TTC_Bylaws/index.jsp

TTC staff stating "required" should be stating "requested" in most instances within the two hour transfer window.

Entering a station or a vehicle that's not POP, then it's required to prove fare is paid. But on POP vehicles, one must just be able to prove fare paid when asked, and the Presto Card does that if tapped within the two hour window.

Proof-of-Payment (POP)


All customers must have valid Proof-of-Payment such as a PRESTO card, paper transfer or TTC pass (Metropass, Weekly Pass, Greater Toronto Area (GTA) Weekly Pass, Day Pass or Convention Pass ), when travelling on the TTC.

Your POP proves you have paid your fare and may be requested at any time by a Fare Inspector or an Operator when you transfer between a bus, streetcar or the subway. Proof-of-Payment is required on all streetcar routes and streetcars are marked with a special POP decal.

Where and how do I get my Proof-of-Payment?
You must get your Proof-of-Payment where you pay your fare.

[...]

Fare inspection and Proof-of-Payment
Transit Fare Inspectors have a difficult job that’s important to making our system run. They will always announce themselves clearly. Please treat them with respect and have your Proof-of-Payment ready, just as you would if you were on a commuter train and a ticket collector came through the car.

At any point in your journey, you may be asked to show Proof-of-Payment. You may be asked:

• At a subway station
• On a vehicle
• As you exit a vehicle

Keep your PRESTO card, transfer, pass (Metropass and Weekly, GTA, Day or Convention Pass), POP receipt or validated TTC ticket handy so that you can show your proof of payment when requested. If you do not have Proof-of-Payment, you may be issued a ticket, with penalties of up to $425.

https://www.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/Fare_information/Proof-of-Payment.jsp

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

So, if I were to enter Bathurst Station with my Presto card and then walk over to the 511 Bathurst car in the loop, would I tap-in on the streetcar too? Even though I tapped into the station a minute prior?

yes you are supposed to tap anytime you change from one vehicle to another and or board a bus insider of a station

 

[steveintoronto]

yes you are supposed to tap anytime you change from one vehicle to another and or board a bus insider of a station

Then explain the "or" in this:

• Tap your PRESTO card on a card reader when you enter a subway station or board a vehicle.

And before this becomes an exercise in semantics and grammar, if you are 'required' to do both, legalese requires an 'and' or 'and/or' to make it so. A subway train is a "vehicle" btw...

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Then explain the "or" in this:

• Tap your PRESTO card on a card reader when you enter a subway station or board a vehicle.

And before this becomes an exercise in semantics and grammar, if you are 'required' to do both, legalese requires an 'and' or 'and/or' to make it so. A subway train is a "vehicle" btw...

Why does this have to get into a legal debate. The TTC is now asking that people tap onto all presto readers from when they enter a station or board a bus or streetcar on the street or in a station. They are doing it for both the purposes of making people know that they have a valid transfer and also to get ridership counts from presto card use.

 

[steveintoronto]

Why does this have to get into a legal debate. The TTC is now asking that people tap onto all presto readers from when they enter a station or board a bus or streetcar on the street or in a station. They are doing it for both the purposes of making people know that they have a valid transfer and also to get ridership counts from presto card use.

Tap when you wish or if you can. When there's line ups trying to get on, and you have your arms full, it can be a hassle and an impediment.

How's this: Use common sense once you're paid up. The whole point originally of having pre-paid zones was to avoid exactly what I've described. Now Toronto is taking it backwards again.

What was POP for?

They are doing it for both the purposes of making people know that they have a valid transfer

How? There's no fare status available on the TTC readers.

 

[DSC]

Why does this have to get into a legal debate. The TTC is now asking that people tap onto all presto readers from when they enter a station or board a bus or streetcar on the street or in a station. They are doing it for both the purposes of making people know that they have a valid transfer and also to get ridership counts from presto card use.

I doubt the TTC are going to put effort into analysing the data they will certainly have available. They have not done any work on their (abysmal) route management (or lack of management) and seem to rely on Steve Munro to do his exhaustive (and exhausting!) analyses.

 

[MetroMan]

So, if I were to enter Bathurst Station with my Presto card and then walk over to the 511 Bathurst car in the loop, would I tap-in on the streetcar too? Even though I tapped into the station a minute prior?

I think that you should. For all intents and purposes, fare paid areas don't really exist anymore. You'll want to prove that you tapped to get on to that bus, in case your 2 hours expire. Who's to say you didn't board the bus on the street after your 2 hours were up? If you tapped to board the bus, you have your proof of payment for that vehicle.

I think that they'll need to make this clear in an intuitive manner. There should be doorless PRESTO "gates" at the entrance to bus loops — essentially a row of posts with PRESTO tap terminals. Tap your card as you pass through. A less intuitive way would be to have PRESTO terminals near where you board with a sign saying "Please tap before boarding".

 

[steveintoronto]

For all intents and purposes, fare paid areas don't really exist anymore. You'll want to prove that you tapped to get on to that bus, in case your 2 hours expire. Who's to say you didn't board the bus on the street after your 2 hours were up? If you tapped to board the bus, you have your proof of payment for that vehicle.

That's already been addressed by Brad Ross in the form of a tweet and posted in these forums. That's not the intent or the case.

The TTC better get their story straight!

And put it in a revision of the Bylaw. You *buy time* on the TTC with the Presto transfer now. And if you board a vehicle before that time elapses, as is the case now with paper transfers, your ride is valid until such time as you have to pass another fare gate.

If you pay to get on the subway, you can ride it until they shut down the system. Even if the vehicle goes out of service, you can get on another as long as the system runs.

If that's not the case, cite chapter and verse of the Bylaw.

I take a transfer whenever possible to effectively 'time stamp' my fare, and I know that I can use my Presto Card right up to 1 minute less than two hours later without being charged another fare.

Who's to say you didn't board the bus on the street after your 2 hours were up?

Your Presto Card does. How is your three hours computed for GO? How about your time from getting off GO and onto the TTC for co-fare?

And are you now required to tap on during your two hour window when changing from Line 1 to Line 2 subway?

 

[Leo_Chan]

Just wanted to point out something that was said during the recent Metrolinx Board Meeting. They have the following names: Physical Presto (status quo), Virtual Presto (Mobile Phone), and Open Presto (Credit Card).