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Tuscani01
Senior Member
It's difficult not to keep putting the TTC in the North American context. What other continent has relied on the automobile, and sold suburban sprawl as the national dream for residents to work towards?
We compare ourselves to North American cities the most because North American cities are the few cities built out of the same mentality as our own. We can try comparing the TTC to London's transit, or Berlin, or Paris, or Shanghai, but the comparison means nothing at the end of the day. Our cities developed under entirely different conditions.
If Toronto had greater density and less sprawl, we wouldn't have as much trouble building transit to every corner of the city. We wouldn't struggle to fill up buses in the suburbs. If Toronto was a much older city, we would have a greater transportation system and a completely different looking city. Toronto is a product of it's time, and its only fair that we compare ourselves to other cities that developed at the same time as us. It's those conditions that we grew under that produced the transit system we have today, and trying to compare us to a city that developed out of different circumstances does nothing to improve our own issues.
Looking at lines on a map and saying their lines are bigger than ours isn't going to erase the history that shaped, and continues to shape our city.
smuncky
Senior Member
Looks like not all streetcars are able to show where you tapped. I got on a WB 505 @ Dundas/Bay on that last tap.
johntauren
Active Member
In my experience, the location of tap-on is never fully accurate for moving vehicles.
Which makes me doubt on how they can accurately be able to tell what a real trip according to TTC transfer rules is (as opposed to how it seems to work right now) - which doesn't even take into account how short-turns would work at all.
ottbike
Active Member
Using presto...
I took the Queen Streetcar Eastbound to Queen Station, tapped in at the faregate to "transfer" and went Northbound to Dundas Station. [1 trip with 1 transfer]
About an hour later, I took the Queen Streetcar back home Westbound from University Ave. [1 trip with 0 transfers]
I was only charged once, and my trip back home was counted as another transfer payment.
After reading other posts, it seems that the Presto readers are unable to detect what is a complete trip on the TTC, at least with the current set-up. Although the same transfer "rules" apply with Presto, I doubt fare inspectors / the ttc would be able to justify giving you a fine if you tapped your presto card in good faith, thinking it was a new trip when it turned out to be a "transfer" payment, as this is technically fare evasion. There is also no way to tell on the readers if your trip was counted as a fare deduction or transfer payment, although other agencies such as OC Transpo use the exact same readers but it tells you after you tap how much money you have left, transfer time remaining etc.
I can see this becoming an issue for the TTC in the months to come if they do not resolve this. If there is truly no way for Presto in its current form to detect what constitutes as a complete trip, the TTC might be forced to indirectly adopt a time based transfer system sooner than they thought.
I took the Queen Streetcar Eastbound to Queen Station, tapped in at the faregate to "transfer" and went Northbound to Dundas Station. [1 trip with 1 transfer]
About an hour later, I took the Queen Streetcar back home Westbound from University Ave. [1 trip with 0 transfers]
I was only charged once, and my trip back home was counted as another transfer payment.
After reading other posts, it seems that the Presto readers are unable to detect what is a complete trip on the TTC, at least with the current set-up. Although the same transfer "rules" apply with Presto, I doubt fare inspectors / the ttc would be able to justify giving you a fine if you tapped your presto card in good faith, thinking it was a new trip when it turned out to be a "transfer" payment, as this is technically fare evasion. There is also no way to tell on the readers if your trip was counted as a fare deduction or transfer payment, although other agencies such as OC Transpo use the exact same readers but it tells you after you tap how much money you have left, transfer time remaining etc.
I can see this becoming an issue for the TTC in the months to come if they do not resolve this. If there is truly no way for Presto in its current form to detect what constitutes as a complete trip, the TTC might be forced to indirectly adopt a time based transfer system sooner than they thought.
nfitz
Superstar
Brad Ross at TTC has said that they are temporarily using a time-base (2-hr?) transfer and won't go switch Presto to the TTC transfer rules until mid-January.
ottbike
Active Member
Perhaps so they can see if the system is performing well at first, instead of flipping on a switch which would make it more complicated?
I don't see it as fare evasion at all. You are in good faith tapping in wherever you go. It's the system that determines when a fare is charged (or not). Fare evasion is a deliberate non-payment. You are trying to pay, they're just not taking your money.
ottbike
Active Member
That is what I meant by it is "technically" fare evasion. Not saying it was deliberate since there is no way of really knowing, but it would be an issue for the TTC if everyone was taking advantage of this. As nfitz pointed out, everything should be back to normal by mid-Jan.
As we also discussed, while some people may be taking advantage, others (like me) are doing more trips because instead of paying three separate fares which I refuse to do and walk instead, I can run errands and just pay one fare. Will it even out? Who knows, but I'm enjoying it while it lasts.
APTA-2048
Senior Member
This was the same scenario when DRT went live with Presto. At that time, DRT's transfer rules were the same as the TTC. Of course, in the end, DRT just adopted the unlimited 2h transfer like everyone else.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Was Metrolinx intending to implement DRT's original transfer rules into Presto, and if so, did they give up attempting to implement it? Or was the intention always to adopt new transfer rules once Presto was implemented?
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Presto is now enabled on all TTC streetcars, according to Del Duca.
PL1
Active Member
And they've started installing on buses. I was on route 124 (Sunnybrook) tonight and there was a Presto machine by the rear doors on bus 8327 (?).
the lemur
Senior Member
Great. I may just get a Presto card the next time I need to take the TTC, which is just occasionally. No more fiddling with tokens and change.