[golodhendil]

100 attention passenger jokes, and 101 of them were bad.

Mine wasn't so much a joke, but an extension of current, real-life scenarios to the future Toronto. I wonder who the joke was on yesterday when I, with bags of groceries, came up to a locked station and was told those exact words.
BTW, I still love LRT and see its advantage where it's suitable. I am not going to write off an entire technology because of blunders happening every other day and a few failblog pictures, unlike what some people on this board are wont to do.

 

[kettal]

Mine wasn't so much a joke, but an extension of current, real-life scenarios to the future Toronto. I wonder who the joke was on yesterday when I, with bags of groceries, came up to a locked station and was told those exact words.
BTW, I still love LRT and see its advantage where it's suitable. I am not going to write off an entire technology because of blunders happening every other day and a few failblog pictures, unlike what some people on this board are wont to do.

I'm having a hard time imagining how the LRT will pull down a power line in a tunnel. Wouldn't the underground section have a charged roof rail rather than a wire?

 

[golodhendil]

As far as I can tell, the majoriy of overhead-powered subways, be they LRT (Boston, SF, Philly, Brussels, the German stadtbahns) or HRT (HK, Japan), except for a few Spanish and Korean systems, use overhead wires rather than overhead conductor rails. For some reason I think TTC is unlikely to go with the latter.

 

[ssiguy2]

The problem is that Toronto never goes with the "latter". In other words Toronto never goes with anything as proved by its near non-excistent expansion of it's rapid/mass transit system over the last 30 years. I am quite confident that this will continue and Toronto will only fall further and further behind in it's transit system as compared to other world cities. Toronto has a truly stellar record of doing nothing and doing it well. Now, even though they still have $4 billion more than they did 5 years ago, will go back to the drawing board.............again. Now all Toronto has under construction is a $900,000,000 Sheppard streetcar that is neither mass nor rapid and it's benefits are few but it will make for a great ribbon cutting ceremony. Where is the money that Toronto said would cough up for it's one third of TC...........no explanation there. Then again why bother with explanations when there are feds and the province to blame.
For some reason that only the maker knows, Toronto doesn't consider using existing rail ROWs, elevated systems, or alternative technology. Its just too radical for Toronto and only third world countries do affordable mass/rapid transit and Toronto is just too "world class". It's doesn't make for "great city building" according to the manderines at City Hall. So in 10 years Toronto will look back at yet another lost decade but will no doubt have a "bold" plan for the 2020s.
Toronto will suffer from further malaise until they get a mayor with balls with a vision of rapid/ mass transit which includes a system that is both mass/rapid as opposed to TC which was neither. Toronto needs another Crombie who knew about what Torontonians wanted. They need a strong person who knows what Torontonians want out of their transit system. but also have a "just build it" mentality. Toronto needs a mayor, dare I say it, like Klein. No on wanted the CTrain in the beginning but he essentially told then all where to go and went ahead anyway and now the CTrain is a stellar success. When it came to mass/rapid transit Klein just told the nay sayer "tough, get over it". His attitude towards mass/rapid transit was the same as how the French treat their terrorists........ shoot now and ask questions later.
Klein just said this is mass, rapid, and affordable so you can bitch all you like but it's being built.

 

[saiho]

The problem is that Toronto never goes with the "latter". In other words Toronto never goes with anything as proved by its near non-excistent expansion of it's rapid/mass transit system over the last 30 years. I am quite confident that this will continue and Toronto will only fall further and further behind in it's transit system as compared to other world cities. Toronto has a truly stellar record of doing nothing and doing it well. Now, even though they still have $4 billion more than they did 5 years ago, will go back to the drawing board.............again. Now all Toronto has under construction is a $900,000,000 Sheppard streetcar that is neither mass nor rapid and it's benefits are few but it will make for a great ribbon cutting ceremony. Where is the money that Toronto said would cough up for it's one third of TC...........no explanation there. Then again why bother with explanations when there are feds and the province to blame.
For some reason that only the maker knows, Toronto doesn't consider using existing rail ROWs, elevated systems, or alternative technology. Its just too radical for Toronto and only third world countries do affordable mass/rapid transit and Toronto is just too "world class". It's doesn't make for "great city building" according to the manderines at City Hall. So in 10 years Toronto will look back at yet another lost decade but will no doubt have a "bold" plan for the 2020s.
Toronto will suffer from further malaise until they get a mayor with balls with a vision of rapid/ mass transit which includes a system that is both mass/rapid as opposed to TC which was neither. Toronto needs another Crombie who knew about what Torontonians wanted. They need a strong person who knows what Torontonians want out of their transit system. but also have a "just build it" mentality. Toronto needs a mayor, dare I say it, like Klein. No on wanted the CTrain in the beginning but he essentially told then all where to go and went ahead anyway and now the CTrain is a stellar success. When it came to mass/rapid transit Klein just told the nay sayer "tough, get over it". His attitude towards mass/rapid transit was the same as how the French treat their terrorists........ shoot now and ask questions later.
Klein just said this is mass, rapid, and affordable so you can bitch all you like but it's being built.

But the C train used a pre-metro LRT method that is tried and true around the world, unlike monorail. The people in Calgary didn't want it because... well they didn't want it. We don't want monorail because it does't work.

BTW

monorail = mass (only in East Asian environments), rapid (so is subway and pre-metro which sucks less), affordable (if you don't have switches, proprietary technology and a train yard but wait... that is important)
+
unsafe, unproven, and just a fad created by sci-fi movies.

 

[Fresh Start]

Transit City-style LRT is not pre-metro though and is unproven in this region as well. Toronto offers few genuine opportunities for LRT to be showcased in a manner that achieves either rapidness or reliability. ROW exclusivity would make Transit City a system to envy, but in the absence of that component we may as well expand subways along corridors heavily trafficked enough to support them, and BRT to the less dense areas as a bus along its own roadway can cover oh so many miles more than a LRT (or monorail) trackbed for the same price.

 

[ssiguy2]

m a fan of LRT for rapid transit but TC was not rapid not mass. In order for a system { regardless of technology } to be both mass and rapid the entire line MUST be completely grade separated..............there are no alternatives. Anything but total grade separation is local service.
Monorail is a proven technology and how one could say otherwise is beyond me.............just ask Wuppertal.. Then again what do the citizens of Tokyo, Osaka, Sao Paulo, Delhi, Germans, and Mumbai know about transit?
Using LRT down rail ROW is a non-starter as the lines are already being uses and LRT needs to much space, elevated LRT is too expensive due to the wires, and cannot be automated.
If one doesn't like Monorail fine but where did this tonka-toy comparison come up If people are qualifying a transit technology by a Simpson's song then they are watching too much TV.
Monorail systems are being built all over the world at an incredible rate. It's really quite amazing how a proven technology that has been around for a hundred years only really began to be used 45 years ago. It really wasn't until the last decade before it really has burst onto the world wide stage. Now that the many systems have been unqualified success cities all over the world are making a truly metamorphic change to a 100 year old technology.
It reminds me of the development of the car. All cars at their initial period were all electric and now after100 years of oil they are trying to go back to electric. It's also similar to LRT/streetcars. All major cities in the world had large streetcar systems 100 years ago but riped them all up and now are spending small fortunes to build them again.
Despite Monorails large upgrades in technology, vehicles, infrastructure it is actually an old tried and true system.

 

[adma]

Toronto will suffer from further malaise until they get a mayor with balls with a vision of rapid/ mass transit which includes a system that is both mass/rapid as opposed to TC which was neither. Toronto needs another Crombie who knew about what Torontonians wanted. They need a strong person who knows what Torontonians want out of their transit system. but also have a "just build it" mentality. Toronto needs a mayor, dare I say it, like Klein. No on wanted the CTrain in the beginning but he essentially told then all where to go and went ahead anyway and now the CTrain is a stellar success. When it came to mass/rapid transit Klein just told the nay sayer "tough, get over it". His attitude towards mass/rapid transit was the same as how the French treat their terrorists........ shoot now and ask questions later.
Klein just said this is mass, rapid, and affordable so you can bitch all you like but it's being built.

Uh, Crombie equated with Klein (yeah, I know, Mayor Klein rather than Premier Klein; but, still). And your invocation of Crombie is all the more illogical as his mayoralty embodied the antithesis of a "just build it" mentality.

You're truly, painfully stupid when it comes to Toronto politics. Even Lastman would fit your bill better than Crombie.

 

[saiho]

m a fan of LRT for rapid transit but TC was not rapid not mass. In order for a system { regardless of technology } to be both mass and rapid the entire line MUST be completely grade separated..............there are no alternatives. Anything but total grade separation is local service.
Monorail is a proven technology and how one could say otherwise is beyond me.............just ask Wuppertal.. Then again what do the citizens of Tokyo, Osaka, Sao Paulo, Delhi, Germans, and Mumbai know about transit?
Using LRT down rail ROW is a non-starter as the lines are already being uses and LRT needs to much space, elevated LRT is too expensive due to the wires, and cannot be automated.
If one doesn't like Monorail fine but where did this tonka-toy comparison come up If people are qualifying a transit technology by a Simpson's song then they are watching too much TV.
Monorail systems are being built all over the world at an incredible rate. It's really quite amazing how a proven technology that has been around for a hundred years only really began to be used 45 years ago. It really wasn't until the last decade before it really has burst onto the world wide stage. Now that the many systems have been unqualified success cities all over the world are making a truly metamorphic change to a 100 year old technology.
It reminds me of the development of the car. All cars at their initial period were all electric and now after100 years of oil they are trying to go back to electric. It's also similar to LRT/streetcars. All major cities in the world had large streetcar systems 100 years ago but riped them all up and now are spending small fortunes to build them again.
Despite Monorails large upgrades in technology, vehicles, infrastructure it is actually an old tried and true system.

not really built around the world as you claim to be as you can see:
in Japan, the land of monorails that work, the most recent one was built in naha in 2003, not really rapid in propagation.
Delhi and Mumbai are building 10 times more kilometers in standard metro technology lines so which is the preferred system?
and the Germans like many other developed countries that have monorails, like Toronto's ICTS is just a novelty.
even China where everything seemed possible, gave up on them. The Chongqing metro line 2 which is a monorail did OK but the next lines the government is planning on building are regular heavy rail transit.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The only reason you say "build a monorail" is if you want it to look pretty. What does monorail offer that regular heavy rail doesn't? Speed? Not a chance. Reliability? You're dreaming. Capacity? It's basically a LRT with heavy rail costs.

And if you instead invested your money into making your LRT or aboveground subway looking pretty, then Monorail's pointless. And I'm sure there's some big cost-benefit over the speed and capacity subway provides versus that of a monorail, meaning more expenses, yadda yadda yadda. So it'll be nicer to make a pretty looking elevated subway than a monorail. Monorails only serve as a spectacle at amusement parks and zoos. They do not make a viable form of transportation.

 

[reaperexpress]

Anything but total grade separation is local service.

Because VIA Rail is SO LOCAL!

Then again what do the citizens of Tokyo, Osaka, Sao Paulo, Delhi, Germans, and Mumbai know about transit?

Where is the city of Germans? I've never heard of it. And as Sai Ho has said, even they are mainly building other modes.

Using LRT down rail ROW is a non-starter as the lines are already being uses and LRT needs to much space,

Just because there are tracks in a corridor doesn't mean that it's impossible to add more. For example the northern weston corridor currently has 2 tracks in a space that could easily have 8. LRT doesn't inherently take up any more space than any other system, including monorail. Even though monorail tracks are thinner, the vehicles stick over the edge, so space taken up is determined by the width of the vehicles, just like every other form of rail transit.[/QUOTE]

elevated LRT is too expensive due to the wires, and cannot be automated.

Yes, those wires cost SO MUCH! And, LRT can be automated so stop making stuff up.

If one doesn't like Monorail fine but where did this tonka-toy comparison come up If people are qualifying a transit technology by a Simpson's song then they are watching too much TV.

I'm pretty sure they were trolling you, because your argument is invalid

Monorail systems are being built all over the world at an incredible rate. It's really quite amazing how a proven technology that has been around for a hundred years only really began to be used 45 years ago. It really wasn't until the last decade before it really has burst onto the world wide stage. Now that the many systems have been unqualified success cities all over the world are making a truly metamorphic change to a 100 year old technology.

So monorails are more proven than trains? And can we compare this "incredible rate" to the LRT rates? LRTs are popping up all over the place, especially in North America.

It reminds me of the development of the car. All cars at their initial period were all electric and now after100 years of oil they are trying to go back to electric. It's also similar to LRT/streetcars. All major cities in the world had large streetcar systems 100 years ago but riped them all up and now are spending small fortunes to build them again.
Despite Monorails large upgrades in technology, vehicles, infrastructure it is actually an old tried and true system.

First of all, cars were not all electric, there was a mix of both until gasoline engines became more efficient than battery cars. And I'm not exactly sure what you're arguing anyway. Subway is an even more tried and true technology that is even more of an upgrade.

Your arguments are really amusing. Please post some more.

 

[golodhendil]

The only reason you say "build a monorail" is if you want it to look pretty. What does monorail offer that regular heavy rail doesn't? Speed? Not a chance. Reliability? You're dreaming. Capacity? It's basically a LRT with heavy rail costs.

And if you instead invested your money into making your LRT or aboveground subway looking pretty, then Monorail's pointless. And I'm sure there's some big cost-benefit over the speed and capacity subway provides versus that of a monorail, meaning more expenses, yadda yadda yadda. So it'll be nicer to make a pretty looking elevated subway than a monorail. Monorails only serve as a spectacle at amusement parks and zoos. They do not make a viable form of transportation.

While monorail may not necessarily exceed HRT in performance, it can (and do) easily match the speed and capacity of the latter, at costs that are comparable or slightly lower than HRT.

I know ssiguy2's incessancy and flawed arguments are starting to get annoying, but that's not an excuse to start making stuff up. Those last two sentences, in particular, are getting stale.

 

[golodhendil]

Because VIA Rail is SO LOCAL!

I know it's fun, but it's pretty obvious what he's referring to. Mainline rail (the majority of them), with signals, gates and absolute priority in crossings, is in effect (if not in form) fully grade separated. There is a reason why even many LRT systems chose / are choosing to grade separate as much as financially viable.

 

[reaperexpress]

I know it's fun, but it's pretty obvious what he's referring to. Mainline rail (the majority of them), with signals, gates and absolute priority in crossings, is in effect (if not in form) fully grade separated. There is a reason why even many LRT systems chose / are choosing to grade separate as much as financially viable.

What I was trying to point out is that you don't actually need to physically grade separate to get the advantages of grade separation (speed and no traffic delays). Los Angeles has demonstrated very effectively that you can apply the mainline rail crossings to LRT and get just as much priority.

The reason we don't do that here is that LRTs would (hopefully) come frequently enough that it would hardly allow cross traffic. However this can be applied where tiny streets cross the corridor, since there are so few cars anyway. For example, we could build the SRT extension at grade north of Sheppard and apply fully gated railroad crossings at greenspire rd and Mammoth Hall Trail (residential streets north of Sheppard). This would cost only a fraction of the current cost (it's being tunneled), yet there would be no change in speed.

 

[ssiguy2]

Its bizzare,.only Toronto would tunnel to get to Malvern.a suburban waste land. Any other city on the planet would think you were nuts. I think Toronto is the only city in the world that tunnels in the burbc. Look at any subway expansion pics and you will not that outside of the downtown/inner city areas all rapid/mass transit is totally grade separated using ROW and elevation. This expensive tunnel or nothing mentality is what has gotten Toronto to where it is today................no where.