[nfitz]

Boy, I hate these Valery Fabrikant-type obsessives on web message boards

Oh man ... that brings back memories. He used to be a hoot. To be fair though, I don't think anyone here comes close to the stuff he used to come up with. Does he still post anywhere?

 

[reaperexpress]

Its bizzare,.only Toronto would tunnel to get to Malvern.a suburban waste land. Any other city on the planet would think you were nuts. I think Toronto is the only city in the world that tunnels in the burbc. Look at any subway expansion pics and you will not that outside of the downtown/inner city areas all rapid/mass transit is totally grade separated using ROW and elevation. This expensive tunnel or nothing mentality is what has gotten Toronto to where it is today................no where.

Wow. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but, I agree with you. When there's an unused rail corridor available, we should use it, not tunnel under it! The TTC makes a lot of strange decisions because transit expansions are political, rather than transportation oriented. Which is why we're getting a subway to Vaughan and not the DRL. I assume that it's also why we're building a tunnel to malvern and not a tunnel under Weston. In the SRT open house, the reason stated for the tunnel was that above ground (in a trench, at grade or elevated) could create noise and disturb people in the neighbourhoods. Yet when the people in Weston proposed the exact same thing in their area the TTC completely rejected the idea based on cost.

However, apart from that section, this is how we should be building medium capacity transit. The rest of the line is mainly elevated LRT, which is cheaper than ICTS and more practical than monorail.

 

[rbt]

Which is why we're getting a subway to Vaughan and not the DRL.

York Region and York University have been asking for this since the 80's. In fact, Downsview was built as phase 1 of that plan; then funding was pulled.

In the SRT open house, the reason stated for the tunnel was that above ground (in a trench, at grade or elevated) could create noise and disturb people in the neighbourhoods.

I too found this to be an odd development.

Yet when the people in Weston proposed the exact same thing in their area the TTC completely rejected the idea based on cost.

I don't recall the TTC being involved in the Weston issue; and the GO Transit based EA gave significantly more ground than the Union-Pearson based EA did.

 

[kettal]

I think he meant to say Mount Dennis, not Weston.

There is a difference between covering a train that goes through back yards vs digging a subway under Eglinton Avenue West.

 

[saiho]

Wow. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but, I agree with you. When there's an unused rail corridor available, we should use it, not tunnel under it! The TTC makes a lot of strange decisions because transit expansions are political, rather than transportation oriented. Which is why we're getting a subway to Vaughan and not the DRL. I assume that it's also why we're building a tunnel to malvern and not a tunnel under Weston. In the SRT open house, the reason stated for the tunnel was that above ground (in a trench, at grade or elevated) could create noise and disturb people in the neighbourhoods. Yet when the people in Weston proposed the exact same thing in their area the TTC completely rejected the idea based on cost.

However, apart from that section, this is how we should be building medium capacity transit. The rest of the line is mainly elevated LRT, which is cheaper than ICTS and more practical than monorail.

well, also look at the Vaughan extension the whole thing is underground. Even though passed Steeles is farmland. the SLRT extension really should be elevated but NIMBY's always manages to rear its ugly head in. Even if transit expansion is not driven by politics. it would still be by NIMBYism which is essentially a different type of politics.

 

[Second_in_pie]

well, also look at the Vaughan extension the whole thing is underground. Even though passed Steeles is farmland. the SLRT extension really should be elevated but NIMBY's always manages to rear its ugly head in. Even if transit expansion is not driven by politics. it would still be by NIMBYism which is essentially a different type of politics.

Have you actually been around there? It may not be dense, but it's not farmland. If you want to make the argument "there's not enough density," or something like that, then please say past York U instead of past Steeles. Up there is all low density, and Toronto's not enlightened in some odd way.

And I'm curious... why bully on Vaughan for getting things done? They realize that to have a real city centre in VMC, they'll need a form of higher order transit. You can't blame Vaughan for Toronto politicians being inactive about subways and building LRT instead.

BTW, Downsview was both for a second Spadina extension, but more importantly to connect with a Sheppard subway west.

 

[saiho]

Have you actually been around there? It may not be dense, but it's not farmland. If you want to make the argument "there's not enough density," or something like that, then please say past York U instead of past Steeles. Up there is all low density, and Toronto's not enlightened in some odd way.

yes i have been there quite a lot in fact, and yes some of it looks like farmland to me. Oh sorry, my bad, HYDRO R-O-W and FARMLAND, either way tunneling under it is a waste of money.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...829,-79.516854&spn=0.022432,0.038581&t=h&z=15

And I'm curious... why bully on Vaughan for getting things done? They realize that to have a real city centre in VMC, they'll need a form of higher order transit. You can't blame Vaughan for Toronto politicians being inactive about subways and building LRT instead.

BTW, Downsview was both for a second Spadina extension, but more importantly to connect with a Sheppard subway west.

well many people around these parts do that because the money could be better spent towards the DRL. i don't really care which one gets built, like you said at least the GTA is doing something to improve transit but I just don't like how they are burning money by tunneling under vacant land.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Ok, if that was your point then I'll agree with it. But if only people could realize there's enough money for all these projects...

 

[saiho]

Ok, if that was your point then I'll agree with it. But if only people could realize there's enough money for all these projects...

well the problem is that the politicians make it appear that there isn't.

 

[reaperexpress]

I think he meant to say Mount Dennis, not Weston.

There is a difference between covering a train that goes through back yards vs digging a subway under Eglinton Avenue West.

Oops. You are correct. I meant Mount Dennis, but I got mixed up because of Weston road.

I guess it would cost more, but at least there would be operational benefits. Personally I like option 5 in this presentation (on the last page). It's largely elevated so it wouldn't cost as much as the completely tunneled option they now consider the only alternative to surface operation.

For some reason they always seem to be saying "underground or nothing" in the presentations. And I quote from the November 2009 presentation:

Some commenters felt the entire project should be underground to provide higher speeds, while others
believed a surface LRT provides a more pleasant riding environment. The project provides the most cost effective solution toward meeting the goals of speed, accessibility and minimizing impact."

The elevated options were totally ignored.

 

[saiho]

Oops. You are correct. I meant Mount Dennis, but I got mixed up because of Weston road.

I guess it would cost more, but at least there would be operational benefits. Personally I like option 5 in this presentation (on the last page). It's largely elevated so it wouldn't cost as much as the completely tunneled option they now consider the only alternative to surface operation.

For some reason they always seem to be saying "underground or nothing" in the presentations. And I quote from the November 2009 presentation:

The elevated options were totally ignored.

yah, wouldn't the elevated option provide both a pleasant riding experience and higher speeds. oh, wait if forgot....
NIMBYs...

 

[ssiguy2]

I've never been to VMC area but it seems over the long term a subway ext there might be a good investment and York Region is paying for the section in their region so that is their progative. The issue is that there is no reason why it should be tunneled anywhere. If its in the burbs it should be a trench or elevated. Seriously, $320 million per km?...................only in Toronto. Also funding was approved ages ago but it will only be done by late 2015. That's 9 years for a 8.6 km extension in the burbs. Vancouver's Canada Line is 21 km and was built from the word it was announced in just 8 years and it required tunneling under False Creek and two large bridges over the Fraser.
If the tender ears at YorkU. or Malvern don't want the noise of a train then tell them they will have to tolerate the noise of their buses. In any other part of the world heads would roll for tunneling for huge prices when its not at ball neccesary. Even the precious few in Rosedale manage to live beside an at grade station.

 

[Electrify]

I think the best candidate for a monorail would be the Downtown Relief Line. Most of the TC lines operate in open suburban areas, with ample room for transit right-of-ways. With the DLR, it would have to be grade separated. This means going above ground or below, and as we all know going underground costs $$$. Because of this, above ground options should be explored, and monorail's small footprint makes it an ideal candidate for this operation.

 

[ssiguy2]

Also Monorails can be automated which saves a lot on long term labour costs. Monorails also have the benfits of having much smaller turning radiuses which can help in avoiding contact with current underground water/electrical infastructure and most Monorails have rubber wheels making them MUCH quieter than subway/LRT/ICTS which will apease a lot of the NIMBYS.
Monorail is a great option for Toronto especially using current ROW and over current suburban roads.

 

[ssiguy2]

Latest Monorail news....................May/2010 the bangalorebuzz.blogspot.com has stated that the new 31km Monorail is a go. Construction is to begin next year and be completed by 2014.
Damn third world cities...................who are they to create fast efficient transit when they can tunnel everything for three times the price and take much longer to do it like "world class" cities do?