[Adjei]

I was just in Montreal for like 3 days and saw them testing REM trains all over the place.

Long time Toronto resident and first time I really got to explore Montreal and wow was I impressed. In a lot of ways Montreal seems bigger. I wish those in Toronto could go to Montreal to see how to build a design a city. I will look to go back again.

 

[SashaLemon]

In a lot of ways Montreal seems bigger.

Montreal was larger before the car, so the "pre car" part of the city is bigger. I think that's why you get the feeling. Toronto didn't take first place until 1981.

 

[p_xavier]

Montreal would be bigger if not for the mayor in charge but Toronto just voted a similar minded one.

 

[nfitz]

Montreal would be bigger if not for the mayor in charge but Toronto just voted a similar minded one.

I'm not sure what Drapeau had to do with it. And I don't see that Drapeau and Chow have similar politics.

Toronto overtaking Montreal has a lot more to do with the stagnation in Montreal starting in the mid-1970s with the exodus of so much business, and the banks. Though it had been dribbling along for a while then already; perhaps the writing was on the wall since the start of the Quiet Revolution.

 

[Sunnyside]

Montreal was larger before the car, so the "pre car" part of the city is bigger. I think that's why you get the feeling. Toronto didn't take first place until 1981.

This is such a fun dynamic to explore in your day-to-day, regardless of the city you are in. For instance, Kitchener-Waterloo feels small because they were just towns before WWII, and Downtown Galt/Cambridge feels in line with them (if not larger than Waterloo sometimes) despite being smaller. While cities have made varying degrees of progress on making postwar areas "feel" urban, it just Isn't the same as the good old fine-grain of prewar urban centers. I haven't been to Montreal for some time, but it's one of the things I plan on taking note of.

I often wonder if Calgary and Edmonton elicit the same experience for out-of-city travelers.

 

[CharmAlarm]

Montreal's new light-rail line launches at the end of the month

After seven years in the making, the South Shore line of Montreal's new light-rail system (REM) will open to the public on July 31. Running 16.6 kilometres from Gare Centrale to Brossard stations, it's the first branch of the network to be built, with additional lines expected in the coming years.

montreal.ctvnews.ca

Griffintown station not on the list of stations opening end of the month. They are also taking measures to mitigate noise.

 

[p_xavier]

I'm not sure what Drapeau had to do with it. And I don't see that Drapeau and Chow have similar politics.

Toronto overtaking Montreal has a lot more to do with the stagnation in Montreal starting in the mid-1970s with the exodus of so much business, and the banks. Though it had been dribbling along for a while then already; perhaps the writing was on the wall since the start of the Quiet Revolution.

Was speaking of Plante's anti density mentra.

 

[asey20]

I don't want to side track the discussion excessively, but a few pics of Tokyo's El seems apt here:

View attachment 489477

View attachment 489478

View attachment 489479

Different Line:

View attachment 489480

View attachment 489481

Just doesn't appeal to me.

Highway 401 overpasses don't appeal to me but I'm still glad they exist and they look just as bad or worse than this (for all the congestion on it; it is still necessary.).

Anyways, the difference between Tokyo's elevated lines and one single elevated line in downtown Montreal is that elevated tracks in Tokyo are often used by multiple lines. That is not something that could be as easily done completely underground in many cases in Tokyo; just like it would be very difficult and costly to tunnel highway 401 at just half the width through Toronto. Transit ridership is also much greater in Tokyo as well so they get a lot of utility out of it despite not being the most pleasant thing to look at.

All of this is still to say, yes I still agree that the downtown portions should ideally be tunneled in downtown Montreal and it would likely be ugly elevated. However can't really knock on Tokyo for having Els because they do get fantastic utility out of it and provide a truly world class service. In this case I believe its worth the tradeoff. In Montreal's case, likely not.

 

[junctionist]

I'm not sure what Drapeau had to do with it. And I don't see that Drapeau and Chow have similar politics.

Toronto overtaking Montreal has a lot more to do with the stagnation in Montreal starting in the mid-1970s with the exodus of so much business, and the banks. Though it had been dribbling along for a while then already; perhaps the writing was on the wall since the start of the Quiet Revolution.

Toronto overtook Montreal because of a more robust economy that was a combination of manufacturing and white collared-work. It would have happened regardless of the Quiet Revolution. Toronto had been growing at a faster pace for many years before the Quiet Revolution.

 

[Northern Light]

Highway 401 overpasses don't appeal to me but I'm still glad they exist and they look just as bad or worse than this (for all the congestion on it; it is still necessary.).

I'm not, I oppose the 401 existing in Toronto. I believe highways should exist, but I think they should connect one city to another, not serve transportation within a City.

Vancouver has no freeways within its urban boundary and I wish Toronto were the same (said as someone who owns a car and drives).

Anyways, the difference between Tokyo's elevated lines and one single elevated line in downtown Montreal is that elevated tracks in Tokyo are often used by multiple lines.

I showed Tokyo because it was cited as preferential example by others. I didn't choose it on my own, and I tried to show varied examples including those well out from the core, very few in Tokyo seem to be small.

That is not something that could be as easily done completely underground in many cases in Tokyo; just like it would be very difficult and costly to tunnel highway 401 at just half the width through Toronto. Transit ridership is also much greater in Tokyo as well so they get a lot of utility out of it despite not being the most pleasant thing to look at.

I'm not disagreeing, but would add, I don't think Tokyo would build this the same way today given a choice.

All of this is still to say, yes I still agree that the downtown portions should ideally be tunneled in downtown Montreal and it would likely be ugly elevated. However can't really knock on Tokyo for having Els because they do get fantastic utility out of it and provide a truly world class service. In this case I believe its worth the tradeoff. In Montreal's case, likely not.

Fair point.

 

[asey20]

I'm not, I oppose the 401 existing in Toronto. I believe highways should exist, but I think they should connect one city to another, not serve transportation within a City.

Vancouver has no freeways within its urban boundary and I wish Toronto were the same (said as someone who owns a car and drives).



I showed Tokyo because it was cited as preferential example by others. I didn't choose it on my own, and I tried to show varied examples including those well out from the core, very few in Tokyo seem to be small.



I'm not disagreeing, but would add, I don't think Tokyo would build this the same way today given a choice.



Fair point.

Vancouver is also significantly smaller than Toronto in size so it's not the best comparison. Let's just be thankful we faired a lot better than many American cities which were destroyed during the highway era.

I understand why you showed Tokyo but just wanted to add the additional perspective of the utility and convenience it provides and how that makes up for certain aspects of it. They did a lot right for the most part.

I agree its likely that they would construct it differently today. Even in the past they elected to build over elevated tracks for the Shinkansen or when they did build completely new elevated tracks they would offer incentives and other infrastructure to compensate for the inconvenience to the community. This is what Montreal should've done at least. It comes down to just poor planning.

 

[ssiguy2]

Vancouver is not a city to marvel at when it comes to highways. It has no urban freeways which may sound nice on paper but in reality it has caused a lot of urban degradation. The transport trucks heading into the city and the port from the US border or Ferries has to take Knight Street which is permanently clogged and due to this the area has higher levels of pollution than areas off the 401. You have trucks belching down roads with schools and housing right along them bringing traffic and the buses to a halt. I live in the Surrey/Langley area and I went to Vancouver 2 Saturdays ago near Granville & Broadway and it took 75 minutes. Every city should have at least one freeway coming relatively close to it's core to get the damn transport trucks off the local roads.

The Gardiner may seem like an eyesore now but that wasn't the case when it was built. Toronto's lakeshore was an absolute dump and littered with industries belching smoke, ugly factories, warehouses, and industrial decay which is why there was no push back from building it unlike the Spadina Expressway.

 

[Obsidian]

Vancouver is not a city to marvel at when it comes to highways. It has no urban freeways which may sound nice on paper but in reality it has caused a lot of urban degradation. The transport trucks heading into the city and the port from the US border or Ferries has to take Knight Street which is permanently clogged and due to this the area has higher levels of pollution than areas off the 401. You have trucks belching down roads with schools and housing right along them bringing traffic and the buses to a halt. I live in the Surrey/Langley area and I went to Vancouver 2 Saturdays ago near Granville & Broadway and it took 75 minutes. Every city should have at least one freeway coming relatively close to it's core to get the damn transport trucks off the local roads.

The Gardiner may seem like an eyesore now but that wasn't the case when it was built. Toronto's lakeshore was an absolute dump and littered with industries belching smoke, ugly factories, warehouses, and industrial decay which is why there was no push back from building it unlike the Spadina Expressway.

Which neighbourhoods would you like to bulldozer for your Vancouver freeway??
THE QEW did kill of one of TORONTO's best neighborhoods in Parkdale that use to go to the lakefront.

 

[drum118]

I'm not, I oppose the 401 existing in Toronto. I believe highways should exist, but I think they should connect one city to another, not serve transportation within a City.

Vancouver has no freeways within its urban boundary and I wish Toronto were the same (said as someone who owns a car and drives).



I showed Tokyo because it was cited as preferential example by others. I didn't choose it on my own, and I tried to show varied examples including those well out from the core, very few in Tokyo seem to be small.



I'm not disagreeing, but would add, I don't think Tokyo would build this the same way today given a choice.



Fair point.

You realize the 401 existed before Toronto became what it is today as a bypass?? It was a 4 lane hwy with land to expand to what it is today.

Where do you think the 401 should be relocated to at what cost and how many decades to do it? Who is to pay fore it?? What about the extra travel time that will be needed to move goods to travel this new 401 and how much more are you willing to pay for things you buy because of extra travel time??

How do you expect things be delivery to everyone from places within the city where they are built or need to be distributed to stores that you buy from??

That car of yours is more important than than moving goods and creating local employment.

 

[Northern Light]

You realize the 401 existed before Toronto became what it is today as a bypass?? It was a 4 lane hwy with land to expand to what it is today.

No Drum, I have no clue about the history of Toronto or the 401.........

Really, must you be so condescending? I know all about the 401 and when it was built as the Toronto by-pass.

Where do you think the 401 should be relocated to at what cost and how many decades to do it? Who is to pay fore it?? What about the extra travel time that will be needed to move goods to travel this new 401 and how much more are you willing to pay for things you buy because of extra travel time??

How do you expect things be delivery to everyone from places within the city where they are built or need to be distributed to stores that you buy from??

That car of yours is more important than than moving goods and creating local employment.

Really, wow, you wasted a post on all that.

I did not say I favoured removing the 401, I said I oppose its existence relative to context in the City.

Which is to say, I consider it bad urban planning that the Toronto by-pass was by-passed.

There is no practical ability to remove it now. I was not suggesting there was.

The Greenbelt should have been created in the 1950s and begun at the 401 and been inviolable, or we should have built the 401 further north.

****

You need to read posts in context Drum, I was replying to someone.

My point in replying was to say if you were purposefully designing a City you would never put the 401 as it is, where it is.

Its function is impaired, and its aesthetically and otherwise problematic.

Its too wide, its entrances/exits are often unsafe for pedestrians/cyclists, its unsightly, there are too few crossings, and its clogged, which defeats the point of efficient movement of goods and people.

My point was not that we should make it disappear.