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When Moose is not committing to double tracking at launch, it's a future hypothetical. Saying it on a discussion forum is not a commitment. Is it in their submissions to regulators? As it stands, I see Moose as hoping the city can work in their service on existing infrastructure. And will only pay for double track if they absolutely need too.

And double tracking will still not address issues of sharing track, station locations or frequencies. Can Moose's proposed bi-levels share track with the diesel LRT that OC Transpo currently uses? Where will the stations locations be? And what frequencies will Moose commit to at launch?



And you have no problem with reduced frequencies?
At the moment, the Trillium Line isn't at an immediate risk of having its frequencies cut. I'm open to listening to what Mr. Potvin and MOOSE have to say on the matter. As they progress through their development and publish more info, I'll continue to read up and reevaluate my opinions.
 
At the moment, the Trillium Line isn't at an immediate risk of having its frequencies cut. I'm open to listening to what Mr. Potvin and MOOSE have to say on the matter. As they progress through their development and publish more info, I'll continue to read up and reevaluate my opinions.

Hey. I'm fine hearing what he has to say. What I'm not fine with, is him misrepresenting his intention or pretending that it's somehow in the interests of Ottawa residents.

I'd actually have more respect for Mr. Potvin if he was actually honest and just flat out said that he needs the Trillium Line to sell rural real estate, and that transit is not really his priority.
 
^ 1) What's the difference between what Waterloo is doing and what a heavy rail Moose and light-rail Trillium Line would do?

As a further question related to yours to Joseph, would Moose also except the City's station locations as noted in its Stage 2 plan?
 
Oh. And yes, I believe the city when they say they'll achieve those frequencies. I believe, they've learned from their mistakes on the current line. Now can you provide anything other than conjecture on why they won't achieve claimed frequencies post-Stage 2? Let's see some concrete evidence to back up your claim that the Trillium Line will not achieve 8 minute intervals after Stage 2. And your ridiculous whataboutism red herring ignores the fact (conveniently), that even if the city failed on their commitment, they'd still offer more frequencies than Moose is even proposing at launch.

You didn't (clearly?) answer my question on what level of frequency you're expecting from Stage 2. I'm going to guess it's 8 minutes.

One of the major problem areas of the current line is the Brookfield Passing track where the southbound train needs to wait almost a full minute (if not more) for the northbound train in order to continue. The current Stage 2 proposal shows no expansion of the current passing track, or any new passing tracks at all. (The next passing tracks would either be at Carleton or South Keys, according to geoOttawa). It's hard to know if frequencies will be able to increase if they just keep running things the same way...

Where'd this idea that MOOSE wouldn't commit to 5 minute frequencies at launch come from? I get that it's not in the current version of their application, but this is the kind of " 'hard' facts driven by extrapolation" that I was talking about earlier.

@Joseph Potvin Would 5 minute frequencies be a launch commitment?
 
1) I don't see how double tracking or pedestrian infrastructure spending are "future hypotheticals", unless MOOSE itself is a "future hypothetical"?

MOOSE is a future hypothetical. They have no money. They have no financial investors. They have no completed feasibility study. They do not have a viable or sustainable financial plan. Everything they talk about is hypothetical. They can make all the promises in the world about this great service they will provide, but until they come up with some up front money, and a way of paying for this service on an ongoing basis, it is completely meaningless. The statement that "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is" comes to mind.

And for the record. I'm an Ottawa resident, live in South West Ottawa (Barrhaven). I commute to work on a daily basis using OC Transpo.
 
There are different versions of the Project Management triangle tradeoff which in essence states that for any project you can either have it done quickly, done well , or at low cost, but you can only get two out of those three for any given scenario. I found a variation of that which is interesting. It's a Venn diagram showing the results depending on which two (or three) options you choose. Interestingly it has a fourth bubble in the Venn diagram which is "free".

Interesting to see what the result is at the intersection of "Free", "Fast", and "Great", which is what MOOSE claims they will provide.
venn.png
 
MOOSE is a future hypothetical.

Yeah. I'm not bothering anymore. Discussing MOOSE is a waste of time and energy. I'd rather happily cheer on Stage 2 and the exciting changes that will bring to Ottawa. It's remarkable that Ottawa will have gone from that puny demonstrator O-Train to 70% of the population being with 5 km of BRT/LRT in about 12 years (if we assume Stage 1 construction start in 2012). That's a great accomplishment and I'm damn proud of Ottawa accomplishing that.
 
I understand that urban sprawl is a lot of people's concern with MOOSE's proposal, however even without MOOSE urban sprawl is showing no signs of stopping. In fact, part of the reason why the Trillium Line is being extended so far south is to meet projected growth in the area. The city also isn't really trying to put a total stop to it. With that said, would it not be a good idea to try and at least get something beneficial out of it? i.e. a rail network + major infrastructure upgrades within the city itself.

I'd appreciate thoughts on this.
 
I understand that urban sprawl is a lot of people's concern with MOOSE's proposal, however even without MOOSE urban sprawl is showing no signs of stopping. In fact, part of the reason why the Trillium Line is being extended so far south is to meet projected growth in the area. The city also isn't really trying to put a total stop to it. With that said, would it not be a good idea to try and at least get something beneficial out of it? i.e. a rail network + major infrastructure upgrades within the city itself.

I'd appreciate thoughts on this.

Moose will do what GO has done to Toronto; it will allow people to live where hey choose and have a more comfortable commute without being a single vehicle occupant.
 
Moose will do what GO has done to Toronto; it will allow people to live where hey choose and have a more comfortable commute without being a single vehicle occupant.

For their commute. Meanwhile, GO has also enabled car dependent communities to delay the consequences of their policies. It's no accident that GO has become the largest parking provider in North America. All those GO commuters are car dependent. A massive proportion of them access the station with their cars. And most of them are in two car families who use their cars for most trips other than commuting. The 905 is starting to feel the consequences as the development fees dwindled and infrastructure costs rise. Most of those 905 McMansions will hit 5 digit property tax bills in the next decade.

But at least in the GTA, the saving grace is that those sprawled out 905 communities are separate municipalities. Ottawa got really screwed over with amalgamation, when entirely rural areas were amalgamated with suburban areas and the urban centre into one entity. This means sprawl in Kanata Or Stittsville is raising everyone's taxes. Imagine, if a North Yorker or downtown resident had to pay much higher taxes bills because of Mississauga's sprawl. As a result, property taxes are ridiculous in Ottawa, especially for those who live inside the greenbelt.

Ottawa already has a significant problem with sprawl. With transit actually enabling it. Just like GO in Toronto. It will get worse with the LRTs. The current LRT developments will reduce travel time from the suburbs a bit. But it will also offer a vastly better travel experience from the burbs. If you're starting in Kanata or Orleans, you'll get a seat. And you'll have nice commuter parking lots to park. That's a great commute experience. Everyone in the urban area by contrast will be getting on to packed LRT after taking a bus. In Toronto's context think of 905'ers boarding at Finch and Vaughan while everyone at Sheppard or Eglinton gets screwed. With the LRT going to Trim Rd in the East and Moodie in the West, and Bowesville in the South, people are going to be encouraged to live further east, west and south.

It should be noted that regional trains don't have to be sprawl inducing. We could have policies that build nice, cute, dense little town all over the Ottawa Valley. But we all know there's no hope of that happening. A house in Stittsville or Orleans is reasonably affordable. Anybody moving to the areas that MOOSE would like to service, is moving there to get acreage. They aren't moving there because of housing affordability concerns. And just like many GO users, they'll create sprawling car dependent communities where their only use of transit is for commuting. Unlike the 905 though, this would be sprawl on steroids though. There's no cost constraint to buying an acre lot in Richmond or Kinburn. This won't be GTA style sprawl. This will American style exurban sprawl.
 
Well, MOOSE's plan is apparently to develop an 800m radius area around its stations. For comparison, that's roughly the same size of the entirety of Herongate (albeit not in a perfect circle).
Can't say I know how densely MOOSE plans to pack it though.
 
Well, MOOSE's plan is apparently to develop an 800m radius area around its stations. For comparison, that's roughly the same size of the entirety of Herongate (albeit not in a perfect circle).
Can't say I know how densely MOOSE plans to pack it though.

That's basically irrelevant when discussing sprawl. This just speaks to the area that MOOSE will develop. You aren't seriously going to argue that somebody is moving to Arnprior to live in a condo by a train station, are you? It's likely that the 800m radius captures most of the commercial establishments in town. Meanwhile, most of the residents will have half acre (or more) lots outside Moose's development area. Probably drive SUVs and pickup trucks to the MOOSE lot to take their 40 km commute on a diesel train. This is all just great for the environment, I'm sure.
 
^@Keithz hit the nail on the head with his remarks regarding building in car dependency.

If Moose could convince me that the areas around its stations will be walkable, and will not lead to car dependent areas being built further afield, I might buy in. However, Moose can’t prevent other developers from adding sprawly suburbs outside that 800m station zone. In fact, I suspect Moose’s investor base is actually counting on that....they develop the area around the stations with the urban commercial core, than they add population (customer base for the core) beyond that. The local municipalities probably want that too, so the zoning will encourage that.

While Moose is an interesting idea, I would prefer to see Ottawa grow through infill in its central area without gobbling up land outside the city limits. That means suppressing growth in these outer communities, just as the GTA needs to suppress growth outside the greenbelt. Some investors will cry foul, but it’s for the greater good.

There are already Ottawa commuters living in those outer zones, and if some basic Moose helps to get them out of their cars, great. But say no to growth.

I visit Ottawa 3-4 times a year, usually staying downtown. I am struck at how transit is oriented to commuters. Getting around without a car in the downtown works well, but the auto is still the best way to get around if you are counter direction commuting or trying to reach someplace across town. The plan for the new RT lines is a great improvement on that, and Moose needs to stay out of its path.

- Paul
 

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