[TOareaFan]

Not sure about the former - If the province gives permission to tax but the city implements it, I don't think the province really owns that decision. And besides, clearly the 416 voter base is on board with new revenue sources for transit. I really think it would be a wash or net positive to the province.

With respect to the latter - Toronto uniquely has additional taxing powers already, its just an extension of that. I know the other municipalities would rattle cages but it doesn't mean it has to happen. Again, the political calculus here is easy - voters may not reject a sales tax in Toronto, but 905 voters would likely have a very different opinion of municipal sales taxes in their regions. Its not a handout of free money.

Exhibit A is the MLTT - I'm not aware of any other cities begging to implement one.

In fact, Mississauga's mayor has been a vocal opponent of increased land transfer taxes and favours sales and income taxes for cities.

http://www.mayorcrombie.ca/mayor-crombie-responds-to-land-transfer-tax-debate/

Although recent quotes seem to indicate she is looking for the same powers as Toronto (but, like Toronto she may not use them all equally so perhaps still opposes land transfer tax)

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...brampton-mississauga-soar-above-torontos.html

 

[rbt]

I honestly cant figure out the provincial political calculus that says a local sales or payroll tax is a bad idea. A sales tax minimally affects the 905 (in fact you could argue it incentives 905 retail shopping) and it taxes visitors to the city - a major revenue pool with no blowback at the polls. Its like the Hotel tax on steroids.

Local sales tax might be tricky since the Federal government collects the funds you need them to buy in to taking on the workload of enforcing the extra boundary and different rates. Sounds easy, but if the software is ancient Cobol coded to set rates by province this could be a multi-million dollar multi-year task just to make it doable.

 

[bobbob911]

Point taken, but I have to believe the cost and effort required is lower than setting up an entire tolling infrastructure on DVP/Gardiner (for example)

 

[steveintoronto]

Local sales tax might be tricky since the Federal government collects the funds you need them to buy in to taking on the workload of enforcing the extra boundary and different rates. Sounds easy, but if the software is ancient Cobol coded to set rates by province this could be a multi-million dollar multi-year task just to make it doable.

No better example of this than Presto, although Presto has a much higher profile than even worse debacles.

Point taken, but I have to believe the cost and effort required is lower than setting up an entire tolling infrastructure on DVP/Gardiner (for example)

Retain or copy the 407ETR consortium to do it, they seem to have had a very high success rate.

 

[rbt]

Point taken, but I have to believe the cost and effort required is lower than setting up an entire tolling infrastructure on DVP/Gardiner (for example)

You can't get the provincial and municipal government to agree to tolling due to voter fear. Why would adding the federal government to the mix make that easier?

For Trudeau, he would need to spend money on collections and take a political hit from raising taxes but has zero benefit (no revenue to spend). That's a horrible deal (and Harper shut it down in seconds when asked; said province wide rates only as per HST agreement).

If you want it done, convince Quebec that they want a Montreal sales tax so Ontario and Quebec can demand it in unison.

 

[muller877]

.
Retain or copy the 407ETR consortium to do it, they seem to have had a very high success rate.

This is the problem with the $2 pipe dream for tolling. The provincially owned portion of the 407 will charge $9 for one trip for the use of the tolling equipment.

https://www.on407.ca/en/tolls/rate-charts/rate-chart-light.html

Would the city get a better rate? No.

So the $2 turns into a $9 transaction charge plus $2 for the use of the DVP....$11.

Will people decide to avoid Toronto for this amount? Yes. Less tourists, less shoppers, less revenue for the city.

 

[Cobra]

This is the problem with the $2 pipe dream for tolling. The provincially owned portion of the 407 will charge $9 for one trip for the use of the tolling equipment.

https://www.on407.ca/en/tolls/rate-charts/rate-chart-light.html

Would the city get a better rate? No.

So the $2 turns into a $9 transaction charge plus $2 for the use of the DVP....$11.

Will people decide to avoid Toronto for this amount? Yes. Less tourists, less shoppers, less revenue for the city.

Yeah, because NYC suburbanites avoids Manhattan anyway they can...sure

 

[steveintoronto]

This is the problem with the $2 pipe dream for tolling. The provincially owned portion of the 407 will charge $9 for one trip for the use of the tolling equipment.

https://www.on407.ca/en/tolls/rate-charts/rate-chart-light.html

Would the city get a better rate? No.

So the $2 turns into a $9 transaction charge plus $2 for the use of the DVP....$11.

Will people decide to avoid Toronto for this amount? Yes. Less tourists, less shoppers, less revenue for the city.

I'm sorry? Where is there a listed price for them to operate others' expressways for them?

Tory officially endorses $2 road toll for DVP and Gardiner Expressway
[...]
In his report, Wallace also pointed out that there is a significant cost to road tolls. In fact, Wallace said that on average about 30 per cent of the revenue generated by tolled roads is eaten up by operating costs. Wallace estimated that the initial cost of tolling the Gardiner and DVP would be $100 to $150 million, assuming that an electronic camera-based tolling system is used, with annual operating costs of $50 to $70 million

“It is anticipated that over time these costs could be reduced as tolling technology evolves to become more automated. Nevertheless, the high overhead cost compares poorly with the marginal costs of increasing existing taxes,” Wallace wrote. [...]

http://www.cp24.com/news/tory-offic...oll-for-dvp-and-gardiner-expressway-1.3174720

Here is the report:
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-98518.pdf

I'll quote from it later, but meantime, perhaps muller could find the basis for his claim in the report?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The City should add a transit surcharge onto Greeen P parking. Toda I can drive downtown and park for two hours for $1.20 cheaper than it costs me to travel downtown by TTC. A single person in a car should not be able to make trips downtown for less than the cost of a TTC fare. We should add a 25 to 30 percent transit surcharge to Green P parking spots.

Green P had revenues of $133 Million in 2015. A 30% surcharge would generate $40 Million for transit annually.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The City should add a transit surcharge onto Greeen P parking. Toda I can drive downtown and park for two hours for $1.20 cheaper than it costs me to travel downtown by TTC. A single person in a car should not be able to make trips downtown for less than the cost of a TTC fare. We should add a 25 to 30 percent transit surcharge to Green P parking spots.

Green P had revenues of $133 Million in 2015. A 30% surcharge would generate $40 Million for transit annually.

A KPMG report mentioned that a general parking sales tax of 5 to 20 percent could generate revenues of $30 to $120 Million per year.

 

[muller877]

I'm sorry? Where is there a listed price for them to operate others' expressways for them?

Here is the report:
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-98518.pdf

I'll quote from it later, but meantime, perhaps muller could find the basis for his claim in the report?

It's because its NOT mentioned in the report that scares me. the 2015 report references a "cost allowance" similar to the 407ETR (which I worry implies a cost recovery from the user)
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-83671.pdf
It also assumes many people use transponders which also implies there is a financial penalty for NOT using the transponder.

Let's assume they do include the costs. The 2015 report also shows that a $2 fee would earn the city $160M net of tolling operating cost. With a cost of $50-70M plus capex to run the tolling (also in the 2015 report) it means that a whopping 30% of the costs are used for tolling and will not benefit the city.

So we are flushing $0.60 for every $2 toll down the drain. Doesn't make economic sense.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Toronto's monthly transit pass the 5th most expensive in the world, study finds
Toronto fares beat only by those in London, New York, Sydney and Dublin

See link.

Prices in U.S. dollars.

A chart lists the most expensive cities in the world for public transportation, with London coming in as the most expensive. (Movinga )

We already knew that the TTC has been underfunded for decades. Except for the politicians and the auto-addicted who refuse to listen to us or put their fingers into their ears when we tell them.

 

[Johnny Au]

Toronto's monthly transit pass the 5th most expensive in the world, study finds
Toronto fares beat only by those in London, New York, Sydney and Dublin

See link.

Prices in U.S. dollars.

A chart lists the most expensive cities in the world for public transportation, with London coming in as the most expensive. (Movinga )

We already knew that the TTC has been underfunded for decades. Except for the politicians and the auto-addicted who refuse to listen to us or put their fingers into their ears when we tell them.

What makes Luanda's monthly transit pass so expensive then?

 

[nfitz]

What makes Luanda's monthly transit pass so expensive then?

Everything in Luanda is expensive - http://www.bbc.com/news/business-16815605

 

[steveintoronto]

Toronto's monthly transit pass the 5th most expensive in the world, study finds
Toronto fares beat only by those in London, New York, Sydney and Dublin

IIRC, Sydney, Melbourne, London and NY all include a degree of heavy rail travel on their card. I'd like to see an 'evenly weighted' comparison, I suspect London aside (five times more expensive rail travel than the European average) Toronto is more expensive than the rest.

I'll try and dig on that later if no-one else has those figures handy.
Edit: Quick Google for LIRR shows a *partial* reduction with MetroCard:

Ticket Offices
Ticket offices sell all LIRR ticket types and offer certain values of MetroCard when purchased with LIRR tickets. Ticket offices accept cash, personal checks, major credit cards, bank-issued debit cards, as well as certain Transit Benefit Cards. Personal checks are accepted for the purchase of Monthly, Weekly, and Ten-Trip tickets, as well as five or more One Way tickets. Ticket office hours are posted at stations and on the LIRR Station page here.

http://web.mta.info/lirr/about/TicketInfo/#mailride

I suspect similar from MetroNorth, as they're all the same state agency, albeit separate divisions. It appears the MetroCard comes from the rail-fare end, not the other way around, but still, that's a saving you don't get with Presto.

MetroCard
MetroCard is a fare medium used for MTA NYC Transit subways and buses, and acceptable on NICE Bus. Some ticket options may be purchased with a MetroCard on the reverse side.

• 
  
  
  • LIRR offers both the $5.50round-trip (2 rides) separately or on round-trip ticket types. If bought separately, a $1 fee will apply ($6.50 total cost).
  • Round-trip tickets may be purchased with a $5.50 MetroCard on the reverse side.
  • Monthly tickets automatically come with a MetroCard on the reverse side. You can choose to add a pre-valued amount to the card at the time you purchase it.
  • All ticket machines and ticket offices offer a separate $25 MetroCard ($27.75 value). A $1 fee will apply ($26 total cost). This fee does not apply to the LIRR Monthly with $50 MetroCard and LIRR Round Trip with $5.50 MetroCard. All MetroCards can be refilled for further use at any NYC Transit MetroCard Vending Machine (MVM) or subway booth. A new MetroCard will be issued at no charge if your card is expiring or damaged. This must be handled at a NYC Transit subway booth or through NYC Transit’s MetroCard Customer Claims. For more details, visit www.mta.info/nyct.
  • Green ticket machines have the AirTrain logo and offer AirTrain MetroCards.

A $1.00 fee will be charged for each new MetroCard purchased at a commuter rail station, MVM or subway booth. You can avoid this fee by keeping and refilling your current MetroCard at any MVM or subway booth. The new $1.00 charge will NOT apply to customers who purchase a combination railroad/MetroCard ticket.

http://web.mta.info/lirr/about/TicketInfo/#metrocard


I'll dig deeper later.