[pstogios]

Liberals relieved toll scheme axed

‪http://on.thestar.com/2kZut0P ‬

“They can see that the subway is going to be running to Vaughan in a few months. They know that we’re deploying more service on the Barrie GO line; they know that we’re building an LRT along with York Region along Hwy. 7. So they can see the evidence that it’s coming,” said Del Duca.

(emphasis mine)

What LRT is he talking about???

 

[nfitz]

BRT

 

[calimehtar]

I am a Liberal Party member and long-time apologist for the Provincial Liberals, and I think it is embarrassing and hypocritical of them to spend a decade pushing for "revenue tools" and then not only offer nothing, but also prevent the city from taking the heat for a controversial decision to add tolls to city-owned roads.

I wrote Del Duca, Wynne, and my own MPP an email implying that they may not have my vote in the next election thanks to this move.

Last election the Liberals seemed like the only party with a solid track record on transit expansion. Unfortunately they seem to be coasting on previously promised and planned projects and more and more offer nothing more than the other parties do.

Theoretically, by mid-2018 the all remaining Transit City projects (that is Finch and Eglinton) will be far enough along that they cannot be cancelled, so there's no reason not to vote for Brown or Horwath. Furthermore the liberals have squandered much of their credibility on revenue tools but also on the Scarborough LRT/Subway fiasco (the city gets most of the blame, but the Liberals wasted no time getting on board) so I'll take anything they promise in the election with a grain of salt.

There are only a few ways for them to redeem themselves. One, to offer politically palatable alternatives for revenue tools - a congestion charge instead of highway tolls maybe - another, more extreme and very unlikely, is if they were to unilaterally upload transit planning in the City of Toronto to Metrolinx.

 

[Euphoria]

No, Wynne is right on this, painful as this is to admit and I'm sure to hear. She's saving us from ourselves. I remember rallying for things like getting rid of Lakeview before Ontario decided to give up coal. While I'm glad that it happened overall, it's cost us a lot, and we're buying more expensive dirty coal from the States, as a result of our green policies. So before we add yet more expenditures and taxation to our lives, let's make sure that things like tolls are actually things we're willing to pay, because make no mistake, they are purely an added expense.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I know somebody who regularly suffered from asthma attacks before the transition away from coal. They haven't had any since the transition. I'm curious what the transition to green energy cost us, compared to decreased healthcare costs, improved productivity, improved economic investment due to cleaner environment, etc...

Unfortunately this hydro issue is so politicized, that it's hard to make heads or tails of the situation. Conservatives claim that green energy is responsible for just about all the increase. Liberals claim that green energy makes up a small fraction, and that the increases are largely due to decades of neglect.

 

[muller877]

I know somebody who regularly suffered from asthma attacks before the transition away from coal. They haven't had any since the transition. I'm curious what the transition to green energy cost us, compared to decreased healthcare costs, improved productivity, improved economic investment due to cleaner environment, etc...

Unfortunately this hydro issue is so politicized, that it's hard to make heads or tails of the situation. Conservatives claim that green energy is responsible for just about all the increase. Liberals claim that green energy makes up a small fraction, and that the increases are largely due to decades of neglect.

It's more likely that the person is getting more healthy due to the reduction of manufacturing in the GTA. Thank the people in the unemployment lines.

Here is a chart of the pollution (4th of 5th one shows Toronto)

http://cleanair.hamilton.ca/default.asp?id=22

This matches pretty much with the Fraser Institute report that says adding filters to the coal plants would give the statistically same result. (good data even if you question their motives...but this report was very thoughtfully researched)

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sit...al-phase-out-reduce-ontario-air-pollution.pdf

Most interesting feature of the Fraser Institute report...dust from cars/construction is the biggest offender. So the best way to help your friend is to have more cleaning of the streets!!!

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I am a Liberal Party member and long-time apologist for the Provincial Liberals, and I think it is embarrassing and hypocritical of them to spend a decade pushing for "revenue tools" and then not only offer nothing, but also prevent the city from taking the heat for a controversial decision to add tolls to city-owned roads.

I wrote Del Duca, Wynne, and my own MPP an email implying that they may not have my vote in the next election thanks to this move.

Good for you - I too have long said, "Hey, they're not perfect but they've done many great and important things for growth and infrastructure investment in the GTA" And they just undermined it all.

DelDuca said something astonishing last week - I don't have the exact quote -but it was something about how his constituents (ie in Vaughan) would be penalized by the tolls because even though there's been all this major transit investment, those options just aren't there on the ground yet. Vaughan has arguably seen more transit investment than anywhere in the province. Yeah, the 407 Transitway and Barrie GO RER are still a few years off but the subway and BRT are both opening this year. And the Barrie line is also getting expanded service and parking lots in the meantime.

It would have taken a couple of years, I suspect, to roll out the tolls so to suggest that his residents, of all people, weren't benefiting from the investments to date etc. was very galling to hear. The province kicked off major transit investment TEN YEARS AGO so when we go to this point, people wouldn't be able to say "I'm not willing to pay until I see transit infrastructure going in." York Region got more than anyone except Toronto so for him to say that - and for Wynne to stand in RH instead of Toronto when making that announcement - was cynical and hypocritical.

And now there's no one else to turn to.

EDIT: Tracked down his quote, in this Star article:
“They can see that the subway is going to be running to Vaughan in a few months. They know that we’re deploying more service on the Barrie GO line; they know that we’re building an LRT along with York Region along Hwy. 7. So they can see the evidence that it’s coming,” said Del Duca.

“But they know it doesn’t exist right now. They know they don’t have alternatives. But, most importantly, they know they’re feeling a pinch on their pocketbooks, generally speaking. They have that anxiety. I think it’s reasonable and justifiable.”

It's not, Steven. Doesn't exist right now? It will in six months! Long before there are tolls!
FAKE NEWS!

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The apologist: It's not like we don't like tolls - we do, but now is not the good time, nor is ever, especially before an election.

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

DelDuca said something astonishing last week - I don't have the exact quote -but it was something about how his constituents (ie in Vaughan) would be penalized by the tolls because even though there's been all this major transit investment, those options just aren't there on the ground yet.[...]It would have taken a couple of years, I suspect, to roll out the tolls so to suggest that his residents, of all people, weren't benefiting from the investments to date etc. was very galling to here.

Dec 13, CBC News:

[...]
Premier Kathleen Wynne, speaking to reporters after a speech on Tuesday morning, said she hadn't received a formal request from the city for permission to impose tolls. But, she said, "I'm very much looking forward to having that conversation with the mayor once he's had it at council."

Even with the province's approval tolls couldn't be collected until at least 2019, according to municipal transportation staff Tuesday. The report on tolls, however, suggests it likely couldn't happen until 2024. [...]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/city-council-meeting-road-tolls-1.3893884

So let's invert the logic this indicates: El Duce et al won't have RER in place in Toronto before 'at least 2019...it likely couldn't happen until 2024'.

El Duce and Kommandant Kathy can't make the trains run on time, no matter how much they blow their flue gases.

Edit to Add: Here's the El Duce quote:

[...]
Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca, who represents Vaughan, while his constituents know transit improvements are coming, there still aren’t enough options for commuters.

“They can see that the subway is going to be running to Vaughan in a few months. They know that we’re deploying more service on the Barrie GO line; they know that we’re building an LRT along with York Region along Hwy. 7. So they can see the evidence that it’s coming,” said Del Duca.

“But they know it doesn’t exist right now. They know they don’t have alternatives. But, most importantly, they know they’re feeling a pinch on their pocketbooks, generally speaking. They have that anxiety. I think it’s reasonable and justifiable.”[...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2017/02/02/liberals-relieved-toll-scheme-axed.html

 

[sixrings]

So if RER wont be up until 2024 would that mean that Smart Track is dead if Tory told his wife he will only do two terms. Why anyone thought this stuff was going to happen is beyond me. I guess people like to hope.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

So if RER wont be up until 2024 would that mean that Smart Track is dead if Tory told his wife he will only do two terms. Why anyone thought this stuff was going to happen is beyond me. I guess people like to hope.

It will happen so long as the provincial government remains committed - as it stands now ST is just RER anyways.

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

So if RER wont be up until 2024 would that mean that Smart Track is dead if Tory told his wife he will only do two terms. Why anyone thought this stuff was going to happen is beyond me. I guess people like to hope.

I think some form of RER will be up and running, or at least well on its way before the next election. The OntGrits have to come up with something, and fast, and for priming votes, the Bramalea south corridor is begging for greater use. They will have the surplus locos in a few months time, and they have more than enough coaches waiting for refurbishment that could be pressed into service to do *something* Bramalea to Union, even if only every half hour due to the 401 bridge constraints. It's not what will happen so much as *indications of it happening*. To do it every 15 mins three times an hour (regular 6 car train does it once an hour from Mr Pleasant) would require only three additional trainsets of 3 coaches each.

It's a no-brainer..well...lol...for normal people.

Edit to Add: In fact the fourth train running to Mt Pleasant every hour could also be a three car consist since the passenger load would be distributed onto the other three, and still lots of room.

 

[steveintoronto]

as it stands now ST is just RER anyways.

What is the latest on the financing on that? It was due November, I've lost track of that. ST only complicates things anyway. It's RER we've got to hold the Grits to. And agreed, some form of it will happen, even if just a single leg. It's got to be *something*. There's more than enough in the fridge to cook something up. Hungry mouths don't mind Spanish Omelettes at all, and the fact that it's leftovers makes it that much better.

 

[sixrings]

It will happen so long as the provincial government remains committed - as it stands now ST is just RER anyways.

AoD

I cant believe we cant use the SRT corridor for a Subway to STC because of RER and SMART TRACK when they are so far off and might never get off the ground.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I cant believe we cant use the SRT corridor for a Subway to STC because of RER and SMART TRACK when they are so far off and might never get off the ground.

Did they even try to make it work? My feeling is that they chose the alignment they don't want first and went ahead from there.

AoD