[AlvinofDiaspar]

Adm. Beez:

I don't believe that personal car use should fund public transit, as far more than personal car users will benefit. If we all benefit, we should all pay.

Personal car use should not be the sole source of funding for public transit, that I agree - but to say that far more personal care users will benefit is not quite true, considering the fact that there would have been significant deleterious effects of the driving experience if public transit is not available. It is in the interest of drivers to provide some support to an option that more or less enable driving as a viable choice.

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

We love you too.

Wow. You want 2.65 millions citizens of of great nation to go to hell? Aren't you a proud Canadian.

Isn't context important here? Doady does not need me to explain his comments or defend him but I think what George is saying here is that as it relates to transit expansion and the funding of same through dedicated taxes/"revenue tools" if Toronto does not support/participate in the raising of the revenue they cannot expect that any of the money raised would be applied to projects within their jurisdication/borders.

That is how I read it anyway.

 

[nfitz]

I think it's simple really: if all the tax revenue comes from the 905, and then all the tax revenue goes to the 905 as well. With the 416 in the picture, the TTC would get a disproportionately large share of the transit funding.

Define disproportionate. If it's simply based on transit ridership, is that disproportionate? TTC is always going to get a lot, lot, lot more money than Mississsauga. The entire Miway ridership is less than only 2 of Toronto's busiest bus routes.

Without the 416 in the picture, the 905 systems actually get a lot more money.

That would be beyond absurd. If Toronto isn't on board, this just won't happen. It's that simple. However there's no indication that Toronto actually get's a say in what the province does. There's also no indication that Toronto is opposed. Rob Ford get's only 1 vote - perhaps 2 if you count his brother. There's still 43 other votes that seem to be about 2/3 in favour of doing something.

And what about the elephant in the room. The 905 communities are not funding TTC. However TTC is carrying a lot of 905 residents in Toronto. Go to Islington and Kipling stations - two of the busier TTC stations. A good portion of the passengers there appear to live in Mississauga. Once again 905 residents are getting a free ride.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Well Twitterverse just reported Councillor Crawford had a mea culpa and will now support adding the funding debate to the city council agenda, after voting against it at the Exec meeting.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Well Twitterverse just reported Councillor Crawford had a mea culpa and will now support adding the funding debate to the city council agenda, after voting against it at the Exec meeting.

AoD

Sounds like a repeat of the Subway vs. LRT debate of yesteryear. Glad to see that the Ford's attempts of blocking the democratic process are failing.

 

[doady]

Define disproportionate. If it's simply based on transit ridership, is that disproportionate? TTC is always going to get a lot, lot, lot more money than Mississsauga. The entire Miway ridership is less than only 2 of Toronto's busiest bus routes.

MiWay gets over 170,000 boardings per weekday.

And what about the elephant in the room. The 905 communities are not funding TTC. However TTC is carrying a lot of 905 residents in Toronto. Go to Islington and Kipling stations - two of the busier TTC stations. A good portion of the passengers there appear to live in Mississauga. Once again 905 residents are getting a free ride.

Wow, such arrogance. First of all, only around 20% of MiWay riders actually use the TTC. After all, the busiest bus route in Mississauga has no connection to the TTC. Second of all, Mississauga residents pay the same TTC fare as Toronto residents. They are also disproportionately contributing a large share of the gas tax funding the TTC receives from the province ($150M per year). Mississauga only gets 1/10 of that funding. And third, Toronto residents use MiWay too. Truth is, Toronto needs the 905 more than the 905 needs Toronto.

Your fantasy of 905ers gettings a "free ride" might be true if the TTC actually provided service in the 905, but it doesn't. The reality is that the 905 provides far more bus service in Toronto than it receives from Toronto. Of course, Toronto residents don't actually benefit that much from all this extra service because the City of Toronto bans the 905 from providing transit service within its borders. That's right, all local transit in Toronto is banned, except the TTC. No 905 municipality bans other municpalities' transit.

Anyways, as I was saying, considering the sheer size of Toronto's transit system, it would receive far more revenue from GTA transit taxes than it contributes, as it does with provincial funding. That's a fact. Toronto needs outside funding more than anyone else in province. If these new taxes are implemented and Toronto is not a part of them, the 905 would benefit immensely. The "elephant" is Toronto.

 

[nfitz]

MiWay gets over 170,000 boardings per weekday.

That's boardings though ... I was talking about ridership. The daily ridership I see reported for MiWay is 110,000 for 2011, compared to boardings of 166,000.

I can find two TTC surface routes that have a combined ridership of 110,000 with no overlap! But worse case scenario ... 3 TTC routes. It's still a pretty tiny operation compared to TTC.

Wow, such arrogance. First of all, only around 20% of MiWay riders actually use the TTC. After all, the busiest bus route in Mississauga has no connection to the TTC. Second of all, Mississauga residents pay the same TTC fare as Toronto residents. They are also disproportionately contributing a large share of the gas tax funding the TTC receives from the province ($150M per year). Mississauga only gets 1/10 of that funding. And third, Toronto residents use MiWay too. Truth is, Toronto needs the 905 more than the 905 needs Toronto.

Arrogance? Surely simply noting the situation isn't arrogance. The gas tax is a good point, however that's primarily used for capital expansion - I'm thinking operating costs here.

If these new taxes are implemented and Toronto is not a part of them, the 905 would benefit immensely. The "elephant" is Toronto.

How could you possibly suggest Toronto wouldn't part of them? I've heard no suggestion of that, other than from some crazed, powerless, wingnuts.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Can someone please explain the logic of having 905 transit taxes stay in 905? Surely people can figure out that we are only going to fix our regional transit issues if all municipalities, including Toronto, get a cut of the revenue.

And of course Toronto is going to get the bulk of the funding. It's one of the perks of having nearly half GTA population living within the city as well as being the economic engine of the entire country. And nobody should be complaining about this. Everyone in the region, province and country will reap the economic benefits.

 

[TOareaFan]

Can someone please explain the logic of having 905 transit taxes stay in 905? Surely people can figure out that we are only going to fix our regional transit issues if all municipalities, including Toronto, get a cut of the revenue.

And of course Toronto is going to get the bulk of the funding. It's one of the perks of having nearly half GTA population living within the city as well as being the economic engine of the entire country. And nobody should be complaining about this. Everyone in the region, province and country will reap the economic benefits.

Couple of comments.

1) I may have misread this but I got the impression that those saying 905 taxes should stay in 905 were doing so in the context of a discussion around Toronto opting out of the tax plan. So, in that scenario, I think it would be a hard sell to, say, the taxpayers of Mississauga that they should pay those extra taxes/fees, Toronto residents won't....and the money raised will pay for, say, the eastern leg of a DRL. If I misread/misunderstood then I apologize and my "explanation" is useless.

2) The general discussion though, shows one of the two real issues/problems I see with the whole new tax and spend on transit era we seem to be entering. Even if the taxes/fees are regional and even if everyone participates, the individual funder/taxpayer will always be thinking of their own situation.....they will pay regionally but think locally. It will be a hard sell to those Mississaugans even if Toronto taxpayers participate if the taxes flow from all over but flow out to, say, an eastern DRL and a subway to Richmond Hill. If you ask people you probably would get a very high percentage (shockingly not 100%) agreeing we need more transit region wide....you might even get a percentage over 50% saying they are willing to pay for it through new taxes....but you won't get anywhere close to 50% agreement on what the priority projects are and that will inevitably lead to "you taxed us and built theirs" type sentiments which will be manipulated/used by opposition parties at the next available opportunity.....so it might be some of that.

 

[nfitz]

I may have misread this but I got the impression that those saying 905 taxes should stay in 905 were doing so in the context of a discussion around Toronto opting out of the tax plan.

Except there is no talk of Toronto opting out of the plan ... obviously Toronto is going to be included. I can't imagine why we need to start discussing scenarios that are clearly not going to happen.

 

[innsertnamehere]

how would you fix that though? we are already seeing that with milton complaining about how it is not getting all day 2 way GO. I too struggle with the phasing of the projects. The DRL is probably the most important, but all day 2 way GO is probably the most politically important. People will get angry if they expect their transit tax to begin their LRT, Subway, or BRT right away when it might not be started for another 5-10 years. In reality the best way to dish out the funds is likely to get all day 2 way started right away, (with 3-4 years of funding), then trickle fund the other projects until completion. Exceptions would be parts of the Dundas BRT and the electrification of the lakeshore lines which should probably be saved for last.

 

[W. K. Lis]

That's boardings though ... I was talking about ridership. The daily ridership I see reported for MiWay is 110,000 for 2011, compared to boardings of 166,000.

I can find two TTC surface routes that have a combined ridership of 110,000 with no overlap! But worse case scenario ... 3 TTC routes. It's still a pretty tiny operation compared to TTC.

Arrogance? Surely simply noting the situation isn't arrogance. The gas tax is a good point, however that's primarily used for capital expansion - I'm thinking operating costs here.

How could you possibly suggest Toronto wouldn't part of them? I've heard no suggestion of that, other than from some crazed, powerless, wingnuts.

There would also be Mississaugians (?) who would walk across the borders to ride the TTC rather than pay MiWay first then another fare for the TTC. I'm sure that occurs all along the Toronto borders with the other adjoining cities (or want-to-be cities) surrounding Toronto.

 

[TOareaFan]

Except there is no talk of Toronto opting out of the plan ... obviously Toronto is going to be included. I can't imagine why we need to start discussing scenarios that are clearly not going to happen.

I did not mean "talk" in the general world but the context of the talk here was that (at least I thought it was).

 

[TOareaFan]

how would you fix that though? we are already seeing that with milton complaining about how it is not getting all day 2 way GO. I too struggle with the phasing of the projects. The DRL is probably the most important, but all day 2 way GO is probably the most politically important. People will get angry if they expect their transit tax to begin their LRT, Subway, or BRT right away when it might not be started for another 5-10 years. In reality the best way to dish out the funds is likely to get all day 2 way started right away, (with 3-4 years of funding), then trickle fund the other projects until completion. Exceptions would be parts of the Dundas BRT and the electrification of the lakeshore lines which should probably be saved for last.

That's the dilema...isn't it. You have laid out what your priorities are/would be.......bet you consensus on those would be difficult to achieve.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Can we turn down the hysterics? I agree with Doady, and what he is saying is not that hard, Toronto needs to get going or get lost. The fighting has to stop. I hope they have a contingency play for eglinton to the airport and the DRL in this. In this money raising plan.


Toronto needs to eat these taxes as much as anyone else.