[js97]

Yesterday's debate was a waste of time that truly accomplished nothing beside leaving the door open to reopen the master agreement with the province.

I fully agree. A lot of grandstanding, voting for things that really are completely out of their hands (tax reduction?)

I think a 1 % sales tax (with some exceptions) would be great, but I fear it's just another tax grab, without any dedication to funding specific projects. They'll need to set up a separate trust and guardian to ensure it doesn't get used to cover other budget shortfalls.

 

[Solid Snake]

They'll need to set up a separate trust and guardian to ensure it doesn't get used to cover other budget shortfalls.

In all my life, I've never seen it. I don't trust government to be able to do it. Cllr Del Grande said it best:

There's money at Queen's Park and Ottawa. The problem is that they don't know how to prioritize. All day kindergarden over transit? 1 Billion for the G20 over transit? Wasting money on the green energy act over Transit...which is for the environment??? Transit is so far down their priority list that now they come to us and ask us to pay more to pay for transit. Can't they find savings within their own budget to fund it?

I also like the way many Councillors pointed out that in the US, both the Feds and the states fund transit and subsidize it. Why can't we? And please don't tell me there's no money in Canada.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

In all my life, I've never seen it. I don't trust government to be able to do it. Cllr Del Grande said it best:

I also like the way many Councillors pointed out that in the US, both the Feds and the states fund transit and subsidize it. Why can't we? And please don't tell me there's no money in Canada.

Well, interestingly Del Grande wasn't able to do it during his term as the budget chief, despite claims of gravy prior. Not to say that we shouldn't have additional funding from Federal and Provincial levels, but to claim that they and they alone have the responsibility, the money and the room to fund transit while the city is doing what little it can to cut existing sources of revenues is a bit hypocritical, I think.

AoD

 

[sixrings]

We have public health care and our schools are heavily subsidized. This really isn't that difficult to understand. If we didn't have public health wed have a lot more money to dedicate to transit. If we didn't mind spending 30000 a year on university we would have a lot more to spend on transit.

 

[Roy G Biv]

We have public health care and our schools are heavily subsidized. This really isn't that difficult to understand. If we didn't have public health wed have a lot more money to dedicate to transit. If we didn't mind spending 30000 a year on university we would have a lot more to spend on transit.

Germany?

 

[Solid Snake]

Germany?

Touche!

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

What's the tax system like in Germany, in comparison to Canada? Without knowing that context, any comparison is pretty meaningless.

AoD

 

[Ansem]

Well, interestingly Del Grande wasn't able to do it during his term as the budget chief, despite claims of gravy prior. Not to say that we shouldn't have additional funding from Federal and Provincial levels, but to claim that they and they alone have the responsibility, the money and the room to fund transit while the city is doing what little it can to cut existing sources of revenues is a bit hypocritical, I think.

AoD

Well, to my understanding
The province downloaded the DVP and Gardiner to the city and community housing...

Did you know that in Quebec, the province takes care of all the Paramedics, all the highways, community housing? I'm sure I'm missing more of those downgraded burdens to municipalities. After all that, the Province of Quebec still subsidizes public Transit and build subways.

Why are you so quick to accept everything the Ontario government is selling you? Let alone when it's a party that's been throwing money away to stay in power and still to this very day lies to your face and makes no apology for it?

 

[Adjei]

Germany?

Germans also pay higher taxes than Canadians, and many people don't want to pay higher taxes for transit.

 

[Ansem]

What's the tax system like in Germany, in comparison to Canada? Without knowing that context, any comparison is pretty meaningless.

AoD

Income taxes

Income tax Canada

15% on the first $43,561 of taxable income, +
22% on the next $43,562 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $43,561 up to $87,123), +
26% on the next $47,931 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $87,123 up to $135,054), +
29% of taxable income over $135,054.

Germany

0 Up to 8,130
14% 8,131-52,881
42% 52,882-250,730
45% 250,731 and over

They do pay more at the Federal level. Then again, in the US, they pay less and they still subsidize Transit

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Well, to my understanding
The province downloaded the DVP and Gardiner to the city and community housing...

Indeed, that was during the Harris years. Got a what, 50% cut to income tax during the same period as well, and guess what, a cut to a subway line under construction. These policies were quite popular with the current RF crowd I think, and Hudak was downright nostalgic about it. Your point?

Did you know that in Quebec, the province takes care of all the Paramedics, all the highways, community housing? I'm sure I'm missing more of those downgraded burdens to municipalities. After all that, the Province of Quebec still subsidizes public Transit and build subways.

I'd be curious to know how much transfer payments Quebec receive. Just saying.

Why are you so quick to accept everything the Ontario government is selling you? Let alone when it's a party that's been throwing money away to stay in power?

I would certainly be quicker to comment on someone saying how good a job Quebec is doing when it was kept afloat by daddy Feds. Oh yes, and the wonder that is the Quebec health system. Throwing money away to stay in power to some is legitimate program spending to others. I disagree with the relocation of the power plants, for example (which every part seem to have promised they'd do, but I digress), but I have a feeling a good chunk of the votes in said riding(s) will disagree with me. Or how about an equalization formula that benefits certain provinces? How is that any less a way to "throw money away to stay/get in power"?

re: Germany

I said tax system, not income tax, which is only a part of it. What of corporate tax? Fuel tax? VAT? Germany also have a national health insurance system - is that included in the income tax system you mentioned? Without knowing the details, making apples to oranges comparison is pure folly.

AoD

 

[Ansem]

Indeed, that was during the Harris years. Got a what, 50% cut to income tax during the same period as well, and guess what, a cut to a subway line under construction. These policies were quite popular with the current RF crowd I think, and Hudak was downright nostalgic about it. Your point?

Cities got stuck with extra expenses they didn't have before putting them at a disadvantage. Finding cash would be easier if they didn't got those extra services to take care of. That was my point

I'd be curious to know how much transfer payments Quebec receive. Just saying.

8B$ And they are still broke due to the fact they overdo it in social programs just to get elected and refuse to prioritize correctly so they could fix their budgets.

So going back to the Liberals. They get back into power after Harris, waste money, increase taxes, votes for expensive initiative like the Green act and they can't find 2B$ a year? How many of those downloaded services have they took back???

I would certainly be quicker to comment on someone saying how good a job Quebec is doing when it was kept afloat by daddy Feds. Oh yes, and the wonder that is the Quebec health system.

At least I acknowledge that both Parti Quebecois and Liberals are mismanaging the money and that the PQ screwed the province. I recognize it. Our health care system? Terrible. You can't even admit that the way this government is handling public finance is a disaster. I'll do the same for Quebec over and over again.

So your defense is to pick on Quebec? Why is it so hard to recognize that this government in Ontario is not doing better? Would you like me to find you articles showing that Ontario's economy is doing worse than Quebec's as of today? (If you can read French)

I said tax system, not income tax, which is only a part of it. What of corporate tax? Germany also have a national health insurance system - is that included in the income tax system you mentioned?

AoD

I'm no expert of German tax system but I already said earlier that they do tax more

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Cities got stuck with extra expenses they didn't have before putting them at a disadvantage. Finding cash would be easier if they didn't got those extra services to take care of. That was my point

That I agree - but how does it negate the fact that the opportunities to raise those funds now exist? The money has to come from taxpayers at some level of government somewhere. As long as those new sources of revenues are dedicated to transit in a transparent, efficient and predictable manner, I would prefer them far more than subjecting it all to the whims of the electoral cycle.

So going back to the Liberals. They get back into power after Harris, waste money, increase taxes, votes for expensive initiative like the Green act and they can't find 2B$ a year? How many of those downloaded services have they took back???

Actually more than you think - GTA social services pooling costs, for one. Expanded health and post-secondary funding for another. And let's not forget they did commit what, 8B in for capital transit spending in the City of Toronto alone either.

So your defense is to pick on Quebec?

Did you know that in Quebec, the province takes care of all the Paramedics, all the highways, community housing? I'm sure I'm missing more of those downgraded burdens to municipalities. After all that, the Province of Quebec still subsidizes public Transit and build subways.

You're the one who brought Quebec into the debate, not me. If you don't want someone to "pick" on it, don't put that model up to promote your point. It's like someone bringing Spain up as the ideal model of how transit should be funded within their tax structure without taking into account how much money they're taking in from the EU.

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

Germans also pay higher taxes than Canadians, and many people don't want to pay higher taxes for transit.

Pretty sure that if we raised the gas tax such that a litre of gas cost here what it cost there......we could have some transit!

The point is that different jurisdictions have different ways of raising and spending money.....what we tend to do in these discussions is pick the best of everywhere and use it as a comparison.

A friend of mine is particularly peeved that beer is so much cheaper in the UK than here.....so he thinks we should lower the taxes on beer....when I ask him how he feels about the price of petrol in the UK he asks me why that is relevant!

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think a 1 % sales tax (with some exceptions) would be great, but I fear it's just another tax grab, without any dedication to funding specific projects. They'll need to set up a separate trust and guardian to ensure it doesn't get used to cover other budget shortfalls.

Tell them to put it in my bank account. I'll watch it