[AlvinofDiaspar]

canarob:

Also, of course York Region would pay its share, just like it does for TTC buses and is doing for the extension to Vaughan. Any suggestion that York Region wouldn't have to pay anything for the extension is ridiculous. Whether or not what YR pays is a “fair share” is another matter though (I haven't heard anything to suggest it doesn't, but I'm not well versed in the numbers involved).

I can see York Region paying for their part of the actual Yonge extension but DRL or other related works is probably beyond their ability to fund (not to mention the fairness of having them pay what they don't really derive direct benefit from). It will have to be a provincial level project.

AoD

 

[jaycola]

Here is quick graphic of the available development land surrounding the Yonge & Steeles intersection. I included the section Of Yonge street between Cummer and Steeles in Toronto.(Blue)

To the south is North York Centre(yellow) and to the west the densely populated Bathurst and Steeles neighbourhood (Red).

Tying together these two population centres through this intersection would make a great deal of sense. Located between the 400 and the 404, the 407 and the 401, by including office and commercial space, this area could become a hub for the region. If the goal is to create densely populated employment and residential nodes, this location is ideal.

Relieving congestion pressures on the Yonge subway south of Eglinton need not be through blocking development at the fringes of the city but encouraging it. Maybe the city needs to put a moratorium on building additional commercial and office space downtown in order to relieve pressure on the Yonge line?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

First of all, the city isn't in a position to stop any plans in York; second, why should there be a moratorium just so that someone living x times further can use the line? If you are against sprawl like you claimed to be then surely you can see the benefit of increasing density where the least amount of commuting likely occurs (and often not by the way of TTC - walking and biking is a common mode in the densified area). Actually come to think of it, since we know that the property tax differential is one of the major centrifugal forces in urban development patterns in the GTA, wouldn't it make more sense, in the interest of limiting sprawl, that we have the outer suburbs raise their commercial/industrial property tax rates? Or implement a special transit tax for residents of the York Region to improve transit delivery by TTC since we know that there is a capacity issue, not to mention sacrifice being the theme of the day?

AoD

 

[lead82]

The problem is not the intensification but the fact that no new transportation infrastructure is built along side. You cant just keep building up along Yonge Street and expect the one street to handle unlimited growth. Just look at the looming disaster of World on Yonge development. The traffic increase will be crippling in this part of Yonge. The BRT was thoughlessly cancelled and the subway wont be built for decades is ever. Also, Toronto, Vaughan and Markham all magically think that road capacity is infinite and refuse to do anything on the broken road network. If Yonge is to be intensified, than the ring roads along Yonge need to be extended all the way up to Highway 7. That means roads like Willowdale and Hilda need to be widened and make to connect to Doris and Beecroft respectively. That would at least buy time until the subway is built.

 

[Glen]

Actually come to think of it, since we know that the property tax differential is one of the major centrifugal forces in urban development patterns in the GTA, wouldn't it make more sense, in the interest of limiting sprawl, that we have the outer suburbs raise their commercial/industrial property tax rates?

No.

It would make sense for Toronto to lower their rate to what the due diligence suggested (approx 1:1, res. bus.).

 

[taal]

No.

It would make sense for Toronto to lower their rate to what the due diligence suggested (approx 1:1, res. bus.).

Why no ?

Look at Vancouver, the ratio between commercial / residential is even worse than Toronto from what I recall ... the difference? The surrounding regions all have similar tax ratios. You'll see this in other North American cities as well.

 

[Dandy Horse]

If i recall correctly, the plan from VIVA since 2005 was to build an LRT from finch to Richmond hill Terminal, starting in '07 or '08. that got cancelled when everyone started talking subways, and York got excited by the 'two' subway extensions, and now theres just one happening, and Yonge North is screwed, its not even getting BRT, BRT is starting at Hwy 7 going every direction but south.
wait a second, where have i heard this story before?

 

[Palma]

Why do you assume that the entire GTA works at Bay and King? More people commute into Markham each day than out of it (much of it from the rest of the 905 and Scarborough, but you get my point).

Also, the appeal of places like Markham does go beyond having a giant house. People genuinely do like many of the neighbourhoods (I admit that some parts of town are terrible). Lots of people would rather have a condo or townhouse in Markham than a condo in Liberty Village or a townhouse in Downsview.

Really? A condo or townhouse in Markham than Toronto. The car guzzling type. And where are these stats everyone seems to throw around "more people commute into York than vice versa" or more people commute into Markham, or wherever than vice versa"

 

[Glen]

And where are these stats everyone seems to throw around "more people commute into York than vice versa" or more people commute into Markham, or wherever than vice versa"

In 1989, total employment in the City of Toronto peaked at almost 1.5 million workers.
Since that time, employment in the city has at best languished. In fact, it is estimated that 100,000 fewer people work today in the City of Toronto than fifteen years ago. In
contrast, employment in the rapidly growing suburbs around Toronto has increased
significantly over this period. In the last 15 years, 800,000 new jobs have been created in the rest of the Toronto CMA (905 area).

In 2002, the 905 area became a net importer of labour from Toronto and the rest of
Ontario. In 2003, the 905 area finally surpassed the City of Toronto in terms of total
employment. Already in 2001, more City residents commuted to jobs in Vaughan, than
Vaughan residents worked in the City.

source: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2005/agendas/council/cc051026/pofedp2rpt/cl001.pdf (page 12)

 

[jaycola]

Vaughan-Richmond Hill-Markham Rail link

The main thrust of the "Places to Grow" initiative is to spread development, both residential and commercial, throughout the Golden Horseshoe. This is precisely the type of development York region is attempting to develop. Toronto should be an active partner in regional growth in order to take pressure off of city services.

Markham and Vaughan both have huge commercial/industrial tracts that account for much of the employment growth in the GTA. Adjacent to these commercial zones are the respective Vaughan and Markham city centres that are presently in planning and development. Toronto itself shares both the industrial in the Steeles and Woodbine (mainly Hi-Tech) and Steeles and Alness areas.

Maybe a goal of Northern GTA development should be to link these areas with a York rapid transit line in order to alleviate congestion building in the region. We have to stop looking at commuter traffic as a one way flow. With growth in the region in the 100,000 per year range, more opportunities for transit should be explored.

Just north of Steeles runs a CN track that could be used as the basis for this transit line. While the CN line is an active line, could there not be an opportunity share this line with commuter rail? Could track switching and track tails accomplish much in allowing this line to be shared?

You could connect the east-west line with Go lines from Barrie and Stouffville as well as the Richmond Hill line.

 

[jaycola]

Vaughan-Richmond Hill-Markham Rail link

The main thrust of the "Places to Grow" initiative is to spread development, both residential and commercial, throughout the Golden Horseshoe. This is precisely the type of development York region is attempting to develop. Toronto should be an active partner in regional growth in order to take pressure off of city services.

Markham and Vaughan both have huge commercial/industrial tracts that account for much of the employment growth in the GTA. Adjacent to these commercial zones are the respective Vaughan and Markham city centres that are presently in planning and development. Toronto itself shares both the industrial in the Steeles and Woodbine (mainly Hi-Tech) and Steeles and Alness areas.

Maybe a goal of Northern GTA development should be to link these areas with a York rapid transit line in order to alleviate congestion building in the region. We have to stop looking at commuter traffic as a one way flow. With growth in the region in the 100,000 per year range, more opportunities for transit should be explored.

Just north of Steeles runs a CN track that could be used as the basis for this transit line. While the CN line is an active line, could there not be an opportunity share this line with commuter rail? Could track switching and track tails accomplish much in allowing this line to be shared?

You could connect the east-west line with Go lines from Barrie and Stouffville as well as the Richmond Hill line.

 

[canarob]

Looking at your map, the planned 407 expressway would service these areas pretty well, especially since it will connect to the YUS in Vaughan, and GO rail and VIVA in multiple locations. The area around Woodbine and Steeles is already served by VIVA Green, if only in rush hour (this could obviously be expanded). I think if rail is ever built east-west in York Region, it will be to replace the 407 expressway.

 

[nfitz]

In 1989, total employment in the City of Toronto peaked at almost 1.5 million workers.

It did peak in 1989, but almost 1.5 million? Why the unnecessary exaggeration? It was closer to 1.3 million. See http://www.toronto.ca/invest-in-toronto/xls/historical_overview.xls

Since that time, employment in the city has at best languished.

Not true. It fell in the recession in the early 1990s to about 1.1 million in 1994 ... but has been steadily rising since.

In fact, it is estimated that 100,000 fewer people work today in the City of Toronto than fifteen years ago.

Estimated by who? City of Toronto's most recent numbers are for 2010 were 1.26 million. Fifteen years earlier in 1995 it was 1.10 million. That's over 160,000 more jobs, not 100,000 less jobs.

source: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2005/agendas/council/cc051026/pofedp2rpt/cl001.pdf (page 12)

Well this could be your problem ... your source is seven years old.

You seem to be about 15 years too late to the party. Employment did fall significantly in the first half the 1990s. But this started over 2 decades ago, and the trend for the last decade and a half has been quite positive.

 

[Glen]

It did peak in 1989, but almost 1.5 million? Why the unnecessary exaggeration? It was closer to 1.3 million. See http://www.toronto.ca/invest-in-toronto/xls/historical_overview.xls

Not true. It fell in the recession in the early 1990s to about 1.1 million in 1994 ... but has been steadily rising since.

Estimated by who? City of Toronto's most recent numbers are for 2010 were 1.26 million. Fifteen years earlier in 1995 it was 1.10 million. That's over 160,000 more jobs, not 100,000 less jobs.

Well this could be your problem ... your source is seven years old.

You seem to be about 15 years too late to the party. Employment did fall significantly in the first half the 1990s. But this started over 2 decades ago, and the trend for the last decade and a half has been quite positive.

Nfitz, the words in my previous post were not mine, they come verbatim from the report I linked to.

FYI, there is a difference between employment and the location of employment, which is what we are talking about. The chart you referenced is based on Stats Can's labour force survey. It does not ascertain place of work. You can read the questionnaire yourself (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/71-543-g/2010001/appendix-appendice2-eng.htm). Their are only two sources for location of employment data. Census and the Toronto Employment Survey (http://www.toronto.ca/demographics/surveys.htm)

Welcome to the conversation.

 

[taal]

The chart from the city of Toronto really confirms what we all know.


Downtown employment how grown quite significantly (and I'm sure the 2011 figures will show this trend continuing at an accelerated pace) ...

Yonge and Eglinton has remained very stable over the last 10 years ... NYCC has grown as well.

Just about the rest of Toronto (with a couple exceptions) has lost jobs over the last 10 years ... anywhere from -5% to -10%+ ...

Overall employment edges up every very little every year.