AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Agreed - it is pretty clear the big players have no interest anywhere but downtown - the ultimatum comes off as rather a anemic meh.
AoD
AoD
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- Thread starter spider
- Start date
000
Senior UT Member
How did the Montreal casino turn out?
gristle
Senior Member
Really, it takes 6,000 people (jobs) to build a casino? Toronto's construction industry is hardly starved for construction jobs. And a casino is supposed to support 12,000 high-paying jobs? I call bullsh*t on these numbers. Most of the supposed 12,000 jobs likely already exist, and numbers are being massaged in order to show even the weakest link to this project. As an investment for the economy, it's pretty grim. Most visitors will be local, so the place will be nothing more than an alternate form of taxation. The whole project is becoming over-decorated with unsupported promises.
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Hanlansboy
Active Member
I'll reserve my opinion until I see the hard copy proposal, and the REAL facts. At this early stage, I believe they greatly egagerate the facts. No doubt it will create jobs, but of what calibre? There's no doubt we have the land, and the proposal is enticing, but to blindly say yes before knowing the details would be nieve. I hope it does work out, personally (just my opinion) I think it would be an amazing addition to not only our skyline, but to our city purse, it would greatly increase tourism, making our great city even better. Only, the devils advocate in me senses we're selling our souls to the greedy Vegas demons, only hope the profits are shared with the city, NOT the province. Like so many other things, it's not the decision to do it, but the political will to do it, oye vey! 
spider
Senior Member
As I understand the situation the profits (or possible losses) of a Casino are not shared with the city or province anymore than the profits of any other business in Toronto, think Maple Leafs or the Banks for openers.
MetroMan
Senior Member
^ This is different. Its a Provincial business that will benefit off Toronto's wealth of residents, businesses and tourists and leaves behind significant expenses (transit, road infrastructure policing, etc). Toronto should make an ultimatum of our own. Yes, you can build this Casino downtown but cover those expenses and guarantee that a portion of the profits go towards an untouchable transit fund to build the DRL and other infrastructure after that.
My councillor Mike Layton is adamantly against this but for one of the few times, we disagree sharply. I'm with the Right on this. "Social ills" generated in a casino will still happen. People gamble privately, they go to Niagara Falls -- heck, we have horse race gambling right here in the GTA already.
My councillor Mike Layton is adamantly against this but for one of the few times, we disagree sharply. I'm with the Right on this. "Social ills" generated in a casino will still happen. People gamble privately, they go to Niagara Falls -- heck, we have horse race gambling right here in the GTA already.
maestro
Senior Member
A net benefit to the city is industry that creates wealth; not one that passes it around.
P.S. 12000 permanent "well paid" jobs is ridiculous. A Vegas casino resort with 9000 suites/rooms ain't gonna happen. It seems every city is building a casino. Tourist may visit while in town but, they won't be attracted to the city because of it.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
Huh, forget the old school crap. This will be an entertainment centre, with a casino, theaters, convention centre, retail mall, hotel, etc etc etc...potentialy these places can easily attract 25,000 people a day
gristle
Senior Member
The question to ask is whether these theaters, mall stores and restaurants etc, etc, will pull people away from the existing stores, theaters, restaurants and hotels etc, etc? What's the plus if this subsidized enterprise ends up damaging the existing base of businesses?
Hanlansboy
Active Member
Correct me if I'm wrong (wouldn't be the first time!) but the OLGC will play a major role in any gambling venture in Toronto. To what extent that role will be is not known at this point. That being said, the OLGC itself, is a government agency, who's profits not only benefit many local charities, but the province itself. In this case, it would be up to the provincial government how much, if any, of those profits would be shared with our city. Yes, it will create jobs, but is it possible it could end up costing us more then its worth, in all aspects, not just financially? So many questions, all with no absolute answers, guess its a mute point, if its rejected. Just looking ahead in the unlikely event it's actually approved, time will tell, I'm very curious to see the proposed renderings!
BMO
Senior Member
Couldn't that be said of any business? Whenever you buy an iPhone you're essentially passing wealth along as the product costs you money. Another example would be any "experience" attraction you visit. While you don't get anything more than an experience or memory people still pay for it and come out with less than what they had. This whole idea of how casinos are essentially making people poor is just not true. I'll go to a casino and play. I'll lose maybe $50. I had fun gambling and I didn't lose my house, yet the casino still makes a profit. Far too many people automatically think fo the giant mortgage losing gamblers as opposed to what the reality is.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
Riverdale Rink Rat
Senior Member
Really? You've seen the plans? And where in downtown Toronto are you going to plant theatres, a convention centre, retail mall, and hotel (given your exhaustive list, what etc. is possible?) w/o displacing some or all of the current entertainment/retail downtown?
So, if you have 25,000 visitors, why in God's name would you need 12,000 permanent staff??? Even given shift work, that's one employee for every 2 customers. I expect, just like the 6,000 construction workers and 12,000 staff, your 25,000 visitors is plucked out of mid-air.
What I want to know is (a) are these guys paying full freight on development charges, and (b) what Toronto (not Ontario) gets out of it -- only property tax? Cut of profits? Opportunity to be the landlord? Any time we get this much hot air up front, I immediately think someone's trying to put something over on me/us/Toronto.
Lenser
Senior Member
+1000%
BMO
Senior Member
Well considering the city's main source of revenue are property taxes, I'd say the city has a lot to gain from this, especially if it's at the Ex grounds which are city owned. Considering they are vacant most of the year this will definitely be making better use of it and it'll be up to the casino to maintain. While Toronto picks up the property taxes and corporate taxes.
I don't know where this number of 25K visitors came from. That seems a little low, especially since Fallsview casino generall has a trip generation of 40K on a weekend day. maybe 25K is a typical weekday trip generation which would make sense. To put it in perspective, the ACC holds 20K, I'd be very skeptical if this project didn't attract more than enough people in an entire year....
As for 12K permanent employees, Wonderland employs 14K in the summers. Just to put it in perspective. That would be a similar type of land-use to what is being proposed (bsedies rollercoasters ofcourse, i'm talking about entertainment).