[steveintoronto]

I don't get though, how is that not "subway, subway, subway"? Seems fully underground from the look of the video. Many subway systems use catenary rather than third rail.

Exactly. And they're standard gauge, and called "metros" and can share track with LRTs and mainline vehicles.

And mainline vehicles like Crossrail run in tunnel for most of the distance of the lines. They're not called "subways" however. They're termed "RER in Tunnel"...or "Metro in Tunnel".

Which is exactly the point.

The Metro Tunnel (sometimes also known as the Melbourne Metro Rail Project or the Metro Rail Capacity Project) is a metropolitan rail infrastructure project currently under construction[1] in Melbourne, Australia. It includes the construction of twin 9-kilometre rail tunnels between South Kensington station (north west of the Melbourne City Centre) and South Yarra (in the south east) with five new underground stations. The southern portal for the tunnel is to be located to the south of South Yarra station. As a result, the tunnel will connect the Pakenham and Cranbourne lines with the Sunbury line, and allow these lines to bypass Flinders Street station and the City Loop while still stopping in the Melbourne central business district.

The project will allow for the operational separation of various existing lines and increase the capacity of the rail network to metro-style frequencies. The project is part of the PTV Network Development Plan.[...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Tunnel

You'll note that Santiago's Line 6 is not compatible with the subway system. It was built to "relieve it". This is the way the world is moving instead of building yesterday's third rail system, which has many shortcomings. Metro systems are also cheaper to build and maintain as well as more efficient.

[...] Bachelet said: “This line will become a favourite mode of transportation for its users. You’ll soon see it with your own eyes: it’s comfortable, pleasant and has the latest technology.

“This is what is achieved with better connectivity, intended for the majority of the people.

“The opportunities offered by a city such as Santiago will be available to everyone, leading to positive changes in neighbourhoods, shopping areas and new urban hubs.”

Features of the line include new technology such as automatic piloting, air conditioning and information screens.

It will be more efficient, with steel wheels that consume less energy due to less rail friction and less weight.[...]

https://www.railway-technology.com/news/newssantiago-metro-line-6-in-chile-inaugurated-5964927/

The only model of metro working on this line is called AS-2014. (Acero Santiago 2014)

The main purposes of Line 6 is to relieve the saturated Line 1 and to provide extra connections across the Santiago transport network. The line connects with Line 1, Line 2, Line 3 and Line 5, with the suburban train network (Metrotrén) at Lo Valledor station, and with the Transantiago bus network at Avenida Pedro Aguirre Cerda, Avenida Departamental, Avenida Santa Rosa and Avenida Grecia. It is also hoped that the line will incentivise development in the south central area of the capital city.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago_Metro_Line_6

 

[steveintoronto]

While Doug Ford mumbles "subways, subways, subways" as he licks himself, Melbourne takes a completely different track. The ALP just won the Victoria election with a landslide, and here's part of their platform:

[...]
Labor's Premier Daniel Andrews went to the election commitment promising a massive infrastructure spend, including a 90-kilometre underground suburban rail loop around Melbourne, which could cost $50 billion and take decades to build.[...]It took Labor two elections to convince the electorate of their Metronet scheme and even then it is arguable that the 2017 state election was more a vote against Colin Barnett than it was a vote for Premier Mark McGowan. You can bet massive infrastructure spending on Metronet fuelled by a GST windfall will be at the top of Mr McGowan's election platform.

I would bet he will be taking a leaf out of the Andrews campaign playbook and presenting public transport spending as a vision for the future and an answer to any question.[...]

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/wes...ria-s-election-bloodbath-20181126-p50iet.html

See:
https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/suburban-rail-loop

Some people embrace the future, other just wear braces to hold their pants up...

 

[tayser]

Just a bit of background on the above.

The Suburban Rail Loop came out of nowhere - literally. It was a policy developed within a non-transport related state department (Development Victoria - which either develops or aids in the development of brownfields sites around the metro area) and the commitment was to spend $300 mil on a proper study/business case if Labor (ALP) won the state election on the weekend.

It went off like a frog in a sock two months ago and talkback radio/TV/letters to the editor were all positive and local media thought it was all partisan feedback designed to give it a huge profile - nope, it was all genuine.

The red ALP (centre-left) have taken three seats in deeply blue Liberal (centre-right) territory in eastern Melbourne - in fact every seat that is expected to be touched with the Suburban Rail Loop - except one, the opposition leader's seat in the north-east - went from blue to red on Saturday (on the map below, Box Hill, Burwood and Glen Waverley are the three areas that flipped.

The blue Airport section and the red Cheltenham-Box Hill sections are earmarked as the first phase.

Monash, Burwood and Bundoora = locations of major university campuses (Monash, Deakin and La Trobe universities respectively) and areas with planning well underway to turn the areas into proper economic/job clusters. Doncaster = a massive shopping centre (mall) and the only local council area in the metro area without a rail (train or tram) service. Melbourne Airport's business case has progressed and has secured $10 bil in state/fed funding - also even though it shows as part of the loop, there'll be a direct Southern Cross (City)-Sunshine-Airport service that will be layered on top of loop services.

The Labor party obviously gave itself a long long lead time (i.e "complete by 2050") but I dare say it'll be done sooner. We might finally break with tradition and build an operationally-independent line (at least from Cheltenham to Sunshine in the west) or it could be a railway/tunnel/station set that has similar characteristics as the rest of the network - that's what the full business case will now sort out.

 

[steveintoronto]

^ I chose this string to post prior after careful consideration as to what the best analog would be for the GTHA. What clinches it for this being apt in this string is the large amount of tunnelling, and the need to relieve the present mainline and metro routes into the core of Melbourne:

By untangling the City Loop, the Metro Tunnel will benefit train lines across the network

By taking our busiest train lines through a new tunnel under the city, the Metro Tunnel will free up space in the City Loop to run more trains in and out of the city.
That means more trains, more often across Victoria, with a less crowded and more reliable train network.

https://metrotunnel.vic.gov.au/#

Vid at that page:

The parallels to Toronto and GTHA are striking, except Melbourne is a generation ahead of us. We have to learn lessons from watching this develop.

Edit to clarify: The Suburban Rail Loop is separate from the City Loop, albeit they'll work complementary to each other.

 

[steveintoronto]

Excellent article by @tayser here:

DID THE SUBURBAN RAIL LOOP WIN THE VICTORIAN ELECTION FOR LABOR?
SUN, 25/11/2018 - 01:30 ALASTAIR TAYLOR

[...details of Vic's election and rail issues...](read full article at link, give the publication the hits)

[...]
COMMENT
There's already a tonne of commentary about the how, the why and the what on the bloodbath that has been thrust upon the opposition - much of it has tended to focus on Federal implications, how Victoria is now the unparalleled progressive leader in the country and how ineffective the law and order angle the Liberals pursued has been. That might be true (or not) but the Premier said it himself in his victory speech.

Shit's getting done (I'm quoting Jon Faine from The Drum on Friday here) and despite the Suburban Rail Loop coming out of nowhere, voters have responded accordingly. Mount Waverley, Burwood and Box Hill are now red with blue on two sides - as outlined above, they are the seats which the Suburban Rail Loop maps released to date pass through.

Regardless if it was a factor or not, an enormous responsibility to get it right now falls on the returned government.

We now know the Treasurer is on board with financing other projects through state debt - Airport Rail Link, North East Link and more level crossings removals were cited as the beneficiaries of the cheap finance - but what of the Suburban Rail Loop?

Interesting times ahead.

https://www.urban.com.au/transport/...ail-loop-win-the-victorian-election-for-labor

Regardez la différence! Ontario is going the other way backwards...

 

[pman]

While I agree with Steve that Melbourne is a generation ahead of Toronto on transit - not that that’s so hard - how can it have such slow trams when they run on their own rights of way?

 

[tayser]

~80% of the Melbourne tram network is mixed with traffic - just like this (a pic from my balcony 5 minutes ago), save for cars driving on the other side of the road, this should look familiar.

 

[tayser]

Anyhow - to keep things in a Toronto context, I whipped up a quick gmap with an equivalent(*) Suburban Rail Loop in Toronto.

* basically a 55-60km underground line (which is what the Melbourne SRL will be through the east and north to the airport, with the remainder to be on the surface through the west) with minimal / few 'new' stops (except where there'd likely be opportunities for redevelopment - otherwise the focus is on interchange/increased densities at those interchanges, that's Melbourne's SRL focus). Melb SRL will likely have trains operating with a max speed of 130kph with avg distances between stations around 4-5km.

I've coloured in other major lines (TTC subway / LRT under construction [with a few of my own tweaks], GO routes etc) to illustrate the type of connectivity you'd get in Toronto based on what's happening with the Melbourne SRL. Yep all those GO routes don't have subway-like services ( I know - nor do some of Melbourne's lines, but overall the network is working toward that here, Toronto would need to do the same).

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-4SmVC8slTpchzIj-pCNs7WZxzVEtZO5&usp=sharing

the more geographically correct Melbourne SRL map is here: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/v...en&z=12&mid=1JqtsS3n4Hurzi69zPIWU-Niq35IoaFTz

 

[pman]

Oh I didn’t know that. The CBD trams I’ve taken in Melbourne have all been on their own ROWs and have been slow as molasses in those sections.

 

[JSF-1]

I've coloured in other major lines (TTC subway / LRT under construction [with a few of my own tweaks], GO routes etc) to illustrate the type of connectivity you'd get in Toronto based on what's happening with the Melbourne SRL. Yep all those GO routes don't have subway-like services ( I know - nor do some of Melbourne's lines, but overall the network is working toward that here, Toronto would need to do the same).

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-4SmVC8slTpchzIj-pCNs7WZxzVEtZO5&usp=sharing

Believe it or not this isn't actually a new idea here. Back in the 1980's the GO ALRT project proposed nearly the same route. It would have used electric trains and run at subway frequency (or around it). The project died after Bill Davis stepped down as premier. It reminds me a lot of the Musashino Line in Tokyo which runs an "incomplete" loop around the edge of the core cities; with the Yamanote line running a loop through the core cities. Toronto has come tantalizingly close to replicating this. Had GO ALRT been build and the Belt Line re-built Toronto could have both a core loop, and outer loop like what is in Tokyo.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Oh I didn’t know that. The CBD trams I’ve taken in Melbourne have all been on their own ROWs and have been slow as molasses in those sections.

From link.

Melbourne trams generally don't use loops, but crossovers to short turn.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

In regards to earlier pages discussion about the long-term viability of the Richmond Hill GO line, I wanted to point out this table in recent GO expansion business case.

Look at Richmond Hill line. It has abysmally poor ridership levels, even after planning service upgrades. Contrast this with the growth potential of every other line aside from Milton (which has its own problems prohibiting upgrades). The business case itself even mentions the same points I made about the long-term poor case for upgrade:

Why not look at replacing this service with an extension of the Relief Line?

 

[Kitsune]

... it mentions the relief line only going to York Mills .... we know from there infographics it shows them possibly building it in phases, and this would point to the first time we've heard of a firm terminus. That likely points to a Victoria Park Alignment - either by Connor or Ovelea/Thorncliffe to avoid the shepphard extension discussion. It could also point to the next round of consulations starting soon.

 

[nfitz]

... it mentions the relief line only going to York Mills .... we know from there infographics it shows them possibly building it in phases, and this would point to the first time we've heard of a firm terminus. That likely points to a Victoria Park Alignment - either by Connor or Ovelea/Thorncliffe to avoid the shepphard extension discussion. It could also point to the next round of consulations starting soon.

My thought was that it would imply they are going for a modified Option 3, and that the DRL alignment would meet the Richmond Hill line near York Mills Road. Surely no option would not have a terminus at York Mills Road.

 

[Kitsune]

The reason I'm assuming a VP alignment is because it was stated that early modelling was showing a VP alignment through Option L had the highest ridership... but that more indepth modelling was required.