[ShonTron]

In which I explain why I am not bullish on the return of the Northlander.

The train is returning to Timmins (sort of)

The last train left Timmins Station in 1990. Today, it serves as a bus terminal for local and Ontario Northland buses Northeastern Ontario got an early Christmas gift from the provincial government…

seanmarshall.ca

 

[micheal_can]

In which I explain why I am not bullish on the return of the Northlander.

The train is returning to Timmins (sort of)

The last train left Timmins Station in 1990. Today, it serves as a bus terminal for local and Ontario Northland buses Northeastern Ontario got an early Christmas gift from the provincial government…

seanmarshall.ca

Can you show where the old ROW to the old Timmins station is no longer congruent?

 

[reaperexpress]

Can you show where the old ROW to the old Timmins station is no longer congruent?

Look at an aerial image. The former route of the line passes through parking lots and a pond.

 

[micheal_can]

Look at an aerial image. The former route of the line passes through parking lots and a pond.

Those are not a problem. Look at Orillia.If they ever wanted to do anything, buildings would need to be removed.Sounds like the ROW is still more or less intact.

 

[crs1026]

^I’m not that worried about the station location, because that clientele is accustomed to a larger last mile trip already.

More likely, it would be helpful for the station to have a good large parking area - with block heater plugs - permitting multi day parking options.

Public transit is an option and opportunity, but I question whether the town’s transit network will be sufficient to many even if the train-bus transfer is slick.

Shuttle buses to specific destinations eg hotels may be an option. Taxi’s will be reluctant to meet the train without high probability of catching a fare, but that race may go to the swift. I don’t know how prevalent ride sharing is up that way, but if therenis cellular service along the line further south, prearranged rideshare or taxi is quite practical.

I wonder what might be possible to raise speeds south of North Bay. I can’t see a case for raising track speeds further north, but if one made the lower section faster it would benefit the entire route. It would be interesting to know whether current speed limits are attributable to curves (which are costly to alter) versus age and past maintenance practices for track (which might be correctable with moderate investment). Probably some of each, I’m guessing.

- Paul

 

[reaperexpress]

Those are not a problem. Look at Orillia.If they ever wanted to do anything, buildings would need to be removed.Sounds like the ROW is still more or less intact.

Just because it's less obstructed than Orillia does not mean that it is intact. Reinstating the line would require property acquisition and significant regrading.

 

[reaperexpress]

^I’m not that worried about the station location, because that clientele is accustomed to a larger last mile trip already.

More likely, it would be helpful for the station to have a good large parking area - with block heater plugs - permitting multi day parking options.

Public transit is an option and opportunity, but I question whether the town’s transit network will be sufficient to many even if the train-bus transfer is slick.

Shuttle buses to specific destinations eg hotels may be an option. Taxi’s will be reluctant to meet the train without high probability of catching a fare, but that race may go to the swift. I don’t know how prevalent ride sharing is up that way, but if therenis cellular service along the line further south, prearranged rideshare or taxi is quite practical.

I wonder what might be possible to raise speeds south of North Bay. I can’t see a case for raising track speeds further north, but if one made the lower section faster it would benefit the entire route. It would be interesting to know whether current speed limits are attributable to curves (which are costly to alter) versus age and past maintenance practices for track (which might be correctable with moderate investment). Probably some of each, I’m guessing.

Indeed, looking from a transit planning perspective it is an obvious missing link to have the line stop short of the Timmins bus terminal located on the site of the former train station. However, the train is only expected to run once a day so it doesn't really matter if the line connects to the regular all-day bus services. All that matters is that there are buses at the train station when the train departs and arrives. Which only requires two special bus trips per day on each route.

For one train per day, it would be impossible to justify extending the line west to the old station, but they could at least build the train station at the west end of the remaining rail line (4 km from the centre of Timmins) rather than at Porcupine 13 km from the centre. Or maybe they could have stops in both locations, with just a basic platform and shelter in Porcupine.

Existing railway in blue.

The longer people can stay on the train, the less early they need to wake up in the morning. The current proposed timetable has the northbound train arriving in Porcupine at 05:10.

 

[White Pine]

Which is kind of a problem, does timmins have transit at midnight? I wonder about north bay too, nobody lives near the train station and the train will get there at like 5 am or midnight. I forgot how early/late their busses run but hopefully people can actually get there. There's also taxi/Uber I suppose

 

[Bordercollie]

Indeed, looking from a transit planning perspective it is an obvious missing link to have the line stop short of the Timmins bus terminal located on the site of the former train station. However, the train is only expected to run once a day so it doesn't really matter if the line connects to the regular all-day bus services. All that matters is that there are buses at the train station when the train departs and arrives. Which only requires two special bus trips per day on each route.

For one train per day, it would be impossible to justify extending the line west to the old station, but they could at least build the train station at the west end of the remaining rail line (4 km from the centre of Timmins) rather than at Porcupine 13 km from the centre. Or maybe they could have stops in both locations, with just a basic platform and shelter in Porcupine.

Existing railway in blue.
View attachment 447205


The longer people can stay on the train, the less early they need to wake up in the morning. The current proposed timetable has the northbound train arriving in Porcupine at 05:10.

It would be 4 trips unless the bus lays over at the station between dropping off and picking up customers.

 

[reaperexpress]

It would be 4 trips unless the bus lays over at the station between dropping off and picking up customers.

yeah... also known as 2 round trips...

 

[C_Johnson_1995]

Was there a reason that the route of the Northlander was altered in 1992? It doesn't seem logical that they would cut out ridership generators like Barrie and Timmins but there isn't a lot of documentation that I could find as to why this was done.

In fact, the whole Newmarket Sub has a lot more potential to generate ridership than the Bala, but they moved it anyway.

 

[crs1026]

Was there a reason that the route of the Northlander was altered in 1992? It doesn't seem logical that they would cut out ridership generators like Barrie and Timmins but there isn't a lot of documentation that I could find as to why this was done.

In fact, the whole Newmarket Sub has a lot more potential to generate ridership than the Bala, but they moved it anyway.

The northbound Northlander came off the Newmarket Sub when the timing of the Canadian was switched from overnight to daytime. The two services competed for the same schedule slot, and running both one behind the other was impractical once the train order offices were closed in favour of OCS. Service to Barrie and Orillia became the “turf” of the transcontinental train.

I’m not sure there was ever much business done between Barrie/Orillia and Northern Ontario, and in fact the Northlander only ever permitted entraining at those locations. With the southbound train always having taken the Beaverton routing, there wasn’t much appeal to that trip pair as it was impossible to buy a return ticket back to Barrie/Orillia.

While the use of the transcon train to serve Barrie and Orillia from Toronto was equally disfunctional, the Canadian had more capability to carry “shorts” whereas selling a ticket on the Northlander from Toronto to Barrie likely meant that seat sat empty the rest of the way to Timmins.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

Just because it's less obstructed than Orillia does not mean that it is intact. Reinstating the line would require property acquisition and significant regrading.
View attachment 447199

I'm not sure I get the example of Orillia, where tracks no longer run.

If I recall correctly, the former ROW is the current Hwy 101 alignment. Hwy 101 used to run through Schumacher, one street south on the image which I think is Fr. Costello Rd. or similar.

The government made the announcement at the end of intact rail so it seems it is a fait acccompli (or the train has left the station - take your pick). Extending the line to Gold Centre at the end of I think what is called the 'Hydro spur' would be costly as the infrastructure is a mess. Trying to get it downtown would obviously be moreso. When the tracks ran into downtown, it still had some freight revenue to justify it. I suppose if we want to make this initiative really expensive and possibly give the government an out, go ahead.

Was there a reason that the route of the Northlander was altered in 1992? It doesn't seem logical that they would cut out ridership generators like Barrie and Timmins but there isn't a lot of documentation that I could find as to why this was done.

In fact, the whole Newmarket Sub has a lot more potential to generate ridership than the Bala, but they moved it anyway.

ONR, like VIA, was a client operator on the Newmarket sub, so had no role to play in the abandonment of the line. I can assume CN abandoned it because they had two lines going between the same two locations (Toronto-Washago), neither had much in the way of on-line revenue, and the Bala sub was straighter and CTC-controlled. For CN or CP, actual or potential passenger ridership isn't a metric.

Why ONTC changed to routing from Timmins to Cochrane I'm not sure. Likely because they wanted to terminate their equipment where they had facilities. I vaguely recall one of the trains (when there was more than one) was operated for VIA, or something?

 

[crs1026]

The Timmins switch was the collateral damage of the Mulroney January 1990 cuts. In those cuts, Cochrane had its Montreal VIA connection (via Senneterre) cut back to once a week and lost its through Kapuskasing-Cochrane-Toronto overnight train (which was a joint VIA-ONR operation).

In May 1990 the Northlander was switched from a Timmins termination to Cochrane. That may have been partly an operational change but also likely the result of the comparative ridership - thinking that a bus connection to Timmins with train to Cochrane sold more tickets than the reverse.

- Paul

 

[ShonTron]

I'm not sure I get the example of Orillia, where tracks no longer run.

If I recall correctly, the former ROW is the current Hwy 101 alignment. Hwy 101 used to run through Schumacher, one street south on the image which I think is Fr. Costello Rd. or similar.

The government made the announcement at the end of intact rail so it seems it is a fait acccompli (or the train has left the station - take your pick). Extending the line to Gold Centre at the end of I think what is called the 'Hydro spur' would be costly as the infrastructure is a mess. Trying to get it downtown would obviously be moreso. When the tracks ran into downtown, it still had some freight revenue to justify it. I suppose if we want to make this initiative really expensive and possibly give the government an out, go ahead.

There used to be a few ONR customers in Downtown Timmins and to the west, at the Temagami River (the winding ROW south of Downtown Timmins to the riverside remains visible, though partially built upon), including lumber yards and Brewers Retail. But they eventually switched to road freight.

Dome was a reliable customer, but then it was consolidated with other mines, with the refining done near Hoyle, east of Porcupine. There’s a heavy mineral truck route connecting the old Hollinger, Dome, and Doyle operations, making the ONR track moot west of Porcupine. Superior Propane is the only customer left on that section, though the Kidd Creek (formerly Texas Gulf) and the Kidd Met site at Hoyle still require rail access.

In my post, I explained that the Highway 101 bypass of Schumacher uses the old railway alignment. That also accelerated the decline of Schumacher’s old main street, which has a ghost town appearance.