You're right. I typo'd there. My bad.
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- Thread starter green22
- Start date
You're right. I typo'd there. My bad.
Ready-made because it was at one point the ROW for the Britannia streetcar.
waterloowarrior
Senior Member
It's been turned into a linear park though... Not exactly ready made.
AnarchoSocialist
Active Member
It would be ready made if you didn't have to account for grade separations which change the nature of how the corridor would be used (excluding its use as a park). The primary reason for originally choosing the Parkway was that it could be easily grade separated (only a few changes would have to be made), and was cheaper. The Richmond-Byron corridor will require a tunnel, or trench, or combination of at grade and over/underpasses, or all three. And it will have to meet the discriminating standards of Westboro residents. A better choice because it serves people better than a parkway route, and it will be what is chosen because there is no other option, but it will be a more expensive and difficult option (not to say it won't be overcome either).
Darwinkgo
Active Member
Not exactly easy to adapt a system with potential for 180m long trains and two minute frequency into a non-grade seperated environment. So the reason they don't choose a route, because the preferred TOD friendly route is going to be crazy expensive. And why give sticker schock again and potentially cause a lot on hand wringing about the first phase.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Couldn't they keep it at-grade and just build bridges over the corridor? I count 8 roads that cross the corridor. Surely 8 bridges, only one which is a major avenue, would be cheaper then trenching?
As for the linear park. I really don't think it's as valuable as fostering TOD in that corridor. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out with the NCC fighting to keep the thing off the ORP. The other issue as I understand it with the ORP is super-elevation. You just can't get good super-elevation on the ORP. Is that true?
I've always partial to running it down Carling personally. I think the number of trip generators along Carling from Westboro to Lincoln Fields far exceeds that along the ORP. The only problem would be getting it from Westboro to Carling...
AnarchoSocialist
Active Member
Bridges going over an at-grade line would be pretty unsightly. And though the park might not be anything special it does add too the character of the neighborhood. Much of Richmond west of the more urban part of Westboro runs through a fairly well to do and desirable neighborhood and ensuring the LRT ROW does no detract from this should be an important priority. I think trenching is going to be the most likely option, though a mix of at-grade and below-grade (at road crossings) may be possible too.
Using the ORP is pretty much a dead issue now. The NCC has made it pretty clear they will not allow it and I don't think the city has tried to push them since they made that decision. Richmond-Byron is the only real option now, its just a matter of how. Im not sure about super-elevations on the ORP, but it wouldnt surprise me if the NCC did have restrictions on them.
Carling has been planned as an LRT route on its own, though that is a decade off at least. The problem with Carling is that it would divert the line and add more travel time then using Richmond. Not only that but Richmond is becoming very desirable and is going to be one part of Ottawa that will see a lot of new development in the coming decades. It makes sense to serve it with LRT to help make developments along this corridor much more urban and less car dependant.
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CapitalSeven
Senior Member
People keep saying that the NCC has said no to LRT on the Parkway, but it isn't really the case. What they've said is only as a last resort, if the city can demonstrate there's no practical alternative. The study for the western corridor is only getting under way and the question is far from settled. The alternatives to the Parkway are themselves problemmatic. A surface option on Carling carrying 15k riders per hour in trains 4-6 cars long seems pretty far-fetched, and frankly a (partly) surface option in the Richmond corridor, while probably quite feasible from an engineering standpoint is going to whip the local residents into such a frenzy of howling that I doubt any politician would back it. This leaves an underground option, which could cost four times as much as the Parkway.
The decision-making process for this extension is going to be much tougher than anything seen with the downtown tunnel study, which is the main reason it wasn't included in the first phase. The Parkway may turn out to be the only fast, affordable, and politically possible option for getting the bulk of the riders downtown from the west end.
The decision-making process for this extension is going to be much tougher than anything seen with the downtown tunnel study, which is the main reason it wasn't included in the first phase. The Parkway may turn out to be the only fast, affordable, and politically possible option for getting the bulk of the riders downtown from the west end.
kEiThZ
Superstar
^ The NCC isn't a political body though. They could not care less about some residents getting whipped into a frenzy. When they say it'll be a corridor of last resort they mean from a technical point of view. And from a feasbility point of view, I see zero reason for why Richmond/Byron is not feasible or even preferable. Those residents who throw up a NIMBY storm can live with the wrath of the western half of the city who will get denied an LRT extension as long these residents stand in the way.
AnarchoSocialist
Active Member
Here is my guess as too how things will play out for the Westboro - Lincoln Fields segment over the next few years.
2010 - 2011: The EA will quietly take place with most of the focus on the first part of the LRT project and getting ready for it to be constructed. It will be completed near the end of 2011 and the recommendation will be a combination tunnel/trench in the Richmond - Byron corridor. It will be the most expensive but serve the most number of people directly and also provide for a fast connection between Westboro and Lincoln Fields.
2012: The plan starts to be picked away at as people find ways to make it cheaper. Most agree that the route is the best one but are worried about cost. Recommendations are made for less tunnelling, some sections and road crossings at grade until the project starts to look slow and sad.
2013: The ever devolving project starts to meet more opposition in the form of the those who think the ORP is the best and cheapest option and start to push for that again. There is also a small faction who push for Carling. There are the groups who support the various versions of the Richmond-Byron corridor resulting in endless debates and bickering and completely stalling progress.
2014: The project is almost forgotten about as construction gets into full swing on the first part of the LRT line, including the tunnel. Attention is turned to the N-S line and converting the current O-Train line into an LRT line. The debate is short as plans become finalized in a quick manner as more people grow excited over LRT in the city.
2015: The N-S line is sent to tender and once the current O-Train shuts down....there is no looking back.
2016: Debate returns to the Westboro - Lincoln Fields section as more people start to see how LRT is going to change the city. They want that link completed so that it can expand further. The EA is restarted.
2017: The original recommendation for a tunnel/trench combination is chosen and supported by the public. It is still the most expensive but it is agreed that it is what needs to be done to make the system the best it can be. Design work and tenders start and there is no looking back. During this whole time smaller projects have continued that complete the most critical remaining links of the transitway that will allow further extensions to be completed much faster and without any of the same debates that have formed around the first segments.
2010 - 2011: The EA will quietly take place with most of the focus on the first part of the LRT project and getting ready for it to be constructed. It will be completed near the end of 2011 and the recommendation will be a combination tunnel/trench in the Richmond - Byron corridor. It will be the most expensive but serve the most number of people directly and also provide for a fast connection between Westboro and Lincoln Fields.
2012: The plan starts to be picked away at as people find ways to make it cheaper. Most agree that the route is the best one but are worried about cost. Recommendations are made for less tunnelling, some sections and road crossings at grade until the project starts to look slow and sad.
2013: The ever devolving project starts to meet more opposition in the form of the those who think the ORP is the best and cheapest option and start to push for that again. There is also a small faction who push for Carling. There are the groups who support the various versions of the Richmond-Byron corridor resulting in endless debates and bickering and completely stalling progress.
2014: The project is almost forgotten about as construction gets into full swing on the first part of the LRT line, including the tunnel. Attention is turned to the N-S line and converting the current O-Train line into an LRT line. The debate is short as plans become finalized in a quick manner as more people grow excited over LRT in the city.
2015: The N-S line is sent to tender and once the current O-Train shuts down....there is no looking back.
2016: Debate returns to the Westboro - Lincoln Fields section as more people start to see how LRT is going to change the city. They want that link completed so that it can expand further. The EA is restarted.
2017: The original recommendation for a tunnel/trench combination is chosen and supported by the public. It is still the most expensive but it is agreed that it is what needs to be done to make the system the best it can be. Design work and tenders start and there is no looking back. During this whole time smaller projects have continued that complete the most critical remaining links of the transitway that will allow further extensions to be completed much faster and without any of the same debates that have formed around the first segments.
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Darwinkgo
Active Member
That would be all well and good, if Ottawa could find another couple billion dollars, which all things considered doesn't seem likely.
kEiThZ
Superstar
The feds and province didn't just support this phase. They've indicated that they are committed to the entire Ottawa TMP, especially where transit is concerned. This is just half of Phase 1. The other half is the replacement of the O-Train.
And then there's Phase 2. That's when the debate about the Western extension starts.
Darwinkgo
Active Member
Supporting a plan is different than funding a plan, as transit city can attest to.
kEiThZ
Superstar
AS,
The EA is already underway and should be complete by the end of 2010.
http://www.ottawalightrail.ca/en/project-plan/current-status
The EA is already underway and should be complete by the end of 2010.
http://www.ottawalightrail.ca/en/project-plan/current-status