[waterloowarrior]

I agree, it looks like most of the city is covered. I would design the station closest to Bank Street with the idea that one day there might be a 2nd LRT line terminating there. I just have a feeling that Bank St is going to be the next Yonge St, and having an LRT tunnel under it may be the next thing in 40-50 years.

I mean, the Prince Edward Viaduct was build in the 1910s, yet they had enough forethought to design it to be capable of carrying a lower deck. No reason why the platform can't be designed to have a perpendicular one placed somewhere around it.

They are looking at that for the curve on the east side

this is from the functional design document

Future LRT Extension
The design of this runningway segment requires
additional work at the preliminary design stage to
address the feasibility of providing for a potential
connection to a future LRT alignment continuing east
along the Rideau/Montreal Road corridor, or north
along King Edward Avenue to provide an
interprovincial transit link. While neither of these
facilities is identified in the City’s current TMP
protection for future linkages should be considered to
allow flexibility in long-term decision making

 

[gweed123]

They are looking at that for the curve on the east side

this is from the functional design document

Future LRT Extension
The design of this runningway segment requires
additional work at the preliminary design stage to
address the feasibility of providing for a potential
connection to a future LRT alignment continuing east
along the Rideau/Montreal Road corridor, or north
along King Edward Avenue to provide an
interprovincial transit link. While neither of these
facilities is identified in the City’s current TMP
protection for future linkages should be considered to
allow flexibility in long-term decision making

Hmm, very interesting. I could see that working. I was thinking more of a southward line along Bank, forming sort of a T with the current planned LRT line. I'm not a big fan of the N-S line being routed into Bayview, I think it's a bit of an arbitrary place to end a line. Even though it would be more expensive, I say end the line where people want to go (in downtown). Don't force a Bloor-Yonge style transfer on people just so that they can reach downtown.

What I see for the N-S line is the current alignment until Carleton, then it goes underneath the canal to Landsdowne Park, then up Bank into downtown.

 

[BMO]

Bank is definitely a rapid transit worth street, it sort of reminds me of Queen st west, with all the mixed uses and street life that you find along the street, I say it would provide a fairly constant amount of ridership.

 

[CapitalSeven]

The North-South (O-Train) line currently ends at Bayview because that's where the track ends. When it is converted to electric, it will also run through the tunnel to at least Hurdman.

While Bank looks like an obvious place for a rapid transit line, there are already two N-S corridors two miles or so apart, and neither is likely to hit capacity in the next 30 years, so adding a third that would require a three-mile tunnel is not even going to be thought about soon. The station they've designed in no way rules it out.

 

[CharmAlarm]

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/With+rail+plan+zero+means+zero/2345774/story.html

With rail plan, zero means zero


By Ken Gray, The Ottawa CitizenDecember 16, 2009 11:06 AMComments (3)

The City of Ottawa is treading a dangerous path with your tax money ... again.

Gloucester-Southgate Councillor Diane Deans says the city is spending at least $13 million on preparations for the new light-rail plan and tunnel. That would be fine ... except the province has said it is unprepared to fund the $2.1-billion-and-rising project. Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty and Municipal Affairs Minister Jim Watson say the current plan is just too expensive.

The province has always been the one stable supporter of light rail. When the federal government wavered in its support on the first rail plan, McGuinty stood firm. When council voted down the first project, McGuinty stood firm. Now McGuinty says the new project is too expensive. Without provincial participation, the federal government is unlikely to fund the deal. The new rail plan is, at best, in limbo.

"I think costs have escalated rather dramatically in terms of estimates," the premier said on Oct. 28. "I think what we need to do now is to sit down in a very sober-minded way, talk this through and decide what it is we can all afford."

McGuinty added: "The issue is how much can we do and how quickly can we do it and how much is it all going to cost. Those are real issues."

Still the city continues to spend and plan as though the project is going ahead. It's not. The city is in denial, and squandering your tax money in the process.

Deans says the upcoming budget contains $7 million for environmental assessments. Those assessments, Deans says, include planning for the route along the Ottawa River Parkway, land owned by the National Capital Commission. In public, the NCC has made a point of saying that it has not approved the parkway route. In private, the city has been told that the parkway route is not going to happen. Still, the municipality acts as though the plan is going forward.

As well, Deans says the budget contains money set aside for staffing a $6-million light-rail office. Just one problem. The city wants a provincial agency, Infrastructure Ontario, to build the project. So why such a huge bureaucracy at Ottawa City Hall?

Deans raised these concerns at a recent audit committee meeting in the form of a motion, which was defeated 9-1. She says council feels that if it stops this charade of planning for the current project, all momentum for rail will stop. That's a gamble with very long odds, particularly when the premier has said this project is too expensive. This plan is finished. Period.

Still, the city's march toward this mythical nirvana continues. A recent staff report recommends to transit committee and council that an urban design and transportation study be undertaken for the period after the rail tunnel has been built. Of course, the tunnel won't be built soon, if ever.

Deans' fears go a step further. Given the enthusiasm for the flawed project at city hall, she is worried that council will approve land acquisition for the project without funding in place from the senior levels of government. The staff report recommends that land purchases occur after senior-level government funding is settled. Deans isn't so sure. Remember this is a council that reneged on a contract for the first rail project and had to pay $37 million in damages. When all the bills were covered from that cancellation, the cost was just less than $100 million. Remember $10 million translates to about one per cent on your property-tax bill.

Now Deans has found at least $13 million (another councillor thinks it is closer to $20 million) being spent for a tunnel plan that runs eight- to 10-storeys deep. A storey or two lower and city officials will be able to build a transfer point between a Chinese subway system and OC Transpo.

Maybe this dream plan is just a mayoral platform for transit committee chairman Alex Cullen and Mayor Larry O'Brien (this new plan is their baby) to run next fall.

"The premier turned down our plan and he is standing in the way of progress. Vote for me and I will fight for this great tunnel plan against a wrong-headed premier," they will say. As though the premier wouldn't like to cut a ribbon on a transit project in his hometown.

Maybe Ottawans, through these wasteful unrealistic rail expenses, are paying for a farcical plank in Cullen's or O'Brien's election campaign. Shades of zero means zero.

Ken Gray is a Citizen editorial board member who produces a monthly podcast, Inner City, at ottawacitizen.com/innercity and a blog, The Bulldog, at ottawacitizen.com/bulldog .

His column runs on Wednesdays.

E-mail: kgray@thecitizen.canwest.com.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

 

[waterloowarrior]

Usually Mr. Gray is a great advocate for planning and sustainable development, it's too bad he's against this plan. He's been saying the plan is already dead for a couple of months, but it seems like staff has been working with Infrastructure Ontario and the MTO, and just finalized their cost and funding estimates

The whole Jim Watson thing seems to be election posturing. against O'Brien.. the minister of Transportation, Jim Bradley or the minister of Energy and Infrastructure Gerry Philips haven't said anything about the cost. People complain about the cost escalations ($1.8 billion to $2.1 billion), but Eglinton for instance went from $2.3 to $4.6 billion and got full funding. McGuinty questioned the rising costs, but he said he was "very optimistic" about funding a solution.

 

[kEiThZ]

Back to the current plan... what do you guys think about the number of downtown stations? Some people wanted to change the spacing a bit and add an extra station. The small circle is 300 m from entrance, large circle is 500m, platforms are about 30-35 metres below ground.

There is some dissatisfaction in Ottawa over station spacing. The planners sold it by saying you are basically walking the same distance outside since exits at either end still keep you close to your destination. But people aren't exactly thrilled. Keep in mind that this is Ottawa where it goes down to -20 quite often in winter and most riders are used to getting off reasonably close to their destination with 5 stops in the core (Laurier, Mackenzie-King, Metcalfe, Bank, Kent) vs. 3 in the future (Downtown East, Downtown West, Rideau).

I think they could have used at least one more stop around Laurier (and maybe pushed Campus further back). That said, I think everybody recognizes the cost issue and most would rather not have the whole thing derailed because they reduced wanted to reduce walking down to 250m for most riders.

 

[kEiThZ]

They are looking at that for the curve on the east side

this is from the functional design document

Future LRT Extension
The design of this runningway segment requires
additional work at the preliminary design stage to
address the feasibility of providing for a potential
connection to a future LRT alignment continuing east
along the Rideau/Montreal Road corridor, or north
along King Edward Avenue to provide an
interprovincial transit link. While neither of these
facilities is identified in the City’s current TMP
protection for future linkages should be considered to
allow flexibility in long-term decision making

I have seen previous plans that envisioned a Transit City style LRT on Montreal/Rideau. Though it would probably have to be tunnelled from St. Laurent till Sussex.

 

[Dan416]

At least their plan is actually rapid transit.

 

[gweed123]

At least their plan is actually rapid transit.

It's most comparable to the Eglinton crosstown. But yes, at least this plan provides improved rapid transit to the most important part of the system.

 

[Darwinkgo]

It's most comparable to the Eglinton crosstown. But yes, at least this plan provides improved rapid transit to the most important part of the system.

Not really. The system is 100% grade separated, with pretty long trains. It will be the closest thing to HRT built in decades in North America.

 

[andrewpmk]

There is some dissatisfaction in Ottawa over station spacing. The planners sold it by saying you are basically walking the same distance outside since exits at either end still keep you close to your destination. But people aren't exactly thrilled. Keep in mind that this is Ottawa where it goes down to -20 quite often in winter and most riders are used to getting off reasonably close to their destination with 5 stops in the core (Laurier, Mackenzie-King, Metcalfe, Bank, Kent) vs. 3 in the future (Downtown East, Downtown West, Rideau).

I think they could have used at least one more stop around Laurier (and maybe pushed Campus further back). That said, I think everybody recognizes the cost issue and most would rather not have the whole thing derailed because they reduced wanted to reduce walking down to 250m for most riders.

As for the issue of walking outside in the cold, could they consider building underground foot tunnels? Not sure if it would be possible to link them to existing buildings easily, but one could at least build a network of foot tunnels under the roads to get people closer to their destination. It would surely be easier than adding an extra station (which would be overkill given the station spacing).

 

[kEiThZ]

Ken Gray is such a tool. He's just hating, cause he liked the old plan.

In the end though there is a no choice. This plan is pretty much the bare minium that's needed: a rail conversion and a tunnel. In this case, there's only one way to skin the cat.

Guys like Ken Gray, argue about running it on the street. Yet, they'd be the first to complain if reliability were an issues....which given Ottawa's Winter and traffic downtown, would be a challenge in the core.

Ken Gray supports a plan that would be the equivalent of running a 6 car LRT on a major downtown street in Toronto like King. King can handle a streetcar, but could it handle 6 car LRTs on 4 minute headways?

Whatever the premier says, sooner or later they'll have to bite the bullet.

 

[kEiThZ]

As for the issue of walking outside in the cold, could they consider building underground foot tunnels? Not sure if it would be possible to link them to existing buildings easily, but one could at least build a network of foot tunnels under the roads to get people closer to their destination. It would surely be easier than adding an extra station (which would be overkill given the station spacing).

A PATH like system is part of the plan. Though, right now they are having a tough time getting retailers to sign on to operate subterranean. Foot tunnels will be there. But adding more of them will be expensive. People will have to get used to walking more. Not an easy sell from what people are used to here.

 

[kEiThZ]

Not really. The system is 100% grade separated, with pretty long trains. It will be the closest thing to HRT built in decades in North America.

+1. There might a short portion in later phases where it might run in a centre or side ROW along the Ottawa River Parkway or the Richmond street corridor. But the vast majority is grade separated using 3 car trains to start and ending up with 6. It's more light metro than light rail.