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No it's not. People get fired from union floors every day. I see it on my job first hand.

Of course, some places are different than others and management in different shops will handle the union differently. But to say "you can't get fired" if you are a union member is pretty ridiculous.
 
Globe

Link to article


Selling off the TTC is back on the table. Is it time?
‘It is large; it's expensive … it doesn't adapt to the future'

TENILLE BONOGUORE

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

May 3, 2008 at 12:11 AM EDT

Last weekend's snap TTC strike not only left commuters stranded and the city scrambling for answers, but it also dragged up a prickly issue in its wake. Privatization, considered to be a dirty word by many Torontonians still wary after the Harris years, was floated at council on Monday.

Advocates say the time is right to explore the idea of contracting out parts of the mighty 10,000-employee Toronto Transit Commission.

For Rob Ford, the Ward 2 councillor who raised the spectre of privatization, it presents a way to break the stronghold of the Amalgamated Transit Union. Other proponents advocate contracting out subway expansions, dividing the TTC into separate specialty units or handing overall control of the region's transit to the province.

“I think we're living a myth,†Ward 16 councillor Karen Stintz said. “We've told ourselves a story that we have a world-class system, but we're not. We're not a leading-edge transit provider any more.â€

Despite Ms. Stintz's clarion call, councillors and analysts of all political persuasions admit that full privatization in any guise will not find traction soon, since council and community sentiment weighs heavily in favour of maintaining the current system.

Advocates say privatization will cut costs and improve services across the city. Detractors warn that it could lead to a mish-mash of companies servicing only the most popular routes, leading to poorer overall service, less central cohesion and no significant savings for the city.

“For thousands of Torontonians, the TTC is critical to their lives. They'll be very careful about changing the status quo,†Ward 34 councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong said. “Just selling the TTC outright to a private company and putting a ‘for sale' sign outside the doors of the TTC is unacceptable to the public, because it's so important to them.†So what is there to gain or lose by whittling down the TTC?

Despite regular commuter gripes about late service, the TTC is one of the most efficient transit systems in the world, in terms of operations, according to a TTC-commissioned study in 2003.

At cost per kilometre and cost per passenger, the system is judged better than most peer cities in North America, with significantly lower subsidies per ride than comparable U.S. systems.

But former city budget chief, David Soknacki, describes the TTC as “dinosauricâ€: “It is large; it's expensive; it moves in old-fashioned ways; it doesn't adapt to the future; and it consumes a lot of food, which is cash,†he says.

He argues that it's vastly outdated: People no longer simply live in the suburbs and commute to the core. They need flexible service.

But outright privatization, he warns, could lead to private enterprise “cherry-picking†the most profitable services – and leaving the taxpayers to fund the rest. Instead, Mr. Soknacki suggests something in between: Split the TTC into specialty divisions and create one controlling body to oversee it and other Greater Toronto Area service providers.

“The administration has the choice of making fundamental changes to the TTC or watching those changes being made for it,†he said. “It's a shame, because the TTC could be leading [transit provision] instead of following.â€

London is held aloft by both camps as an example of the pros and cons of privatization. Those trumpeting the cons include TTC chair Adam Giambrone, who points to the failed privatization of London's iconic Underground as a cautionary tale. Contractors were paid to maintain and renew the Tube network while the government agency Transport for London (TfL) retained ownership of tracks, trains and stations.

But last year the five-corporation body called Metronet Rail BCV Ltd. that took on two of the three $34-billion contracts incurred debts of at least $4-billion, leaving TfL and the City of London to cover the loss. “There are no other major centres [outside London] that run privatized operations. There's a reason,†Mr. Giambrone said.

Above ground, however, London's bus reform is a glowing privatization success story, said Ben Dachis, a policy analyst for public-policy think tank the C.D. Howe Institute.

“The bus services in the U.K. after privatization are just off-the-charts better than they were before,†he said. “Prices are way down, service is way up. … The best way to get around London these days is on the bus. No one takes the Underground.â€

Mr. Dachis says there are two options for privatizing the TTC: Contract out some services, such as maintenance; or overhaul the entire transit system. Both approaches offer substantial gains, he said.

Through piecemeal outsourcing, the union could compete alongside private companies for TTC contracts. Where this is done in other cities, unions win 90 per cent of contracts and the city's costs are driven down thanks to competitive pricing. This could lead to lay-offs, but Mr. Dachis said in other privatized cities only 3 per cent of jobs were lost. Many workers found jobs in private companies or elsewhere in public service.

Fundamental reform would see the TTC open up internal services and transit routes to private providers.

“Until recently, only a few people had been talking about the benefits of having other transit providers, but I think the last TTC strike really struck a chord with people,†Mr. Dachis said. “They thought, ‘We need this [service], but we can't rely on the TTC, so what can we do?' â€

Fear is keeping the issue off the city agenda, though. The TTC and the executive council have misconceptions that outsourcing will lead to massive job losses, Mr. Dachis said, and there is a strong desire to retain the TTC monopoly over transit. But the idea must be considered. “In the long run, I really do believe we should be emulating the London model … of public services, public routes being provided by private bus companies. This is absolutely something that can happen in Toronto.â€

Ms. Stintz shies away from putting operations to private tender, but she sees capital expansions, maintenance and other work as ripe for a new approach. The TTC currently manages every aspect of capital projects, like new stations and subway lines. In a $100-million project, parts that cost less than $10,000 must still go through the TTC's bureaucratic machinations for approval and implementation.

The TTC estimates that paperwork adds 20 per cent to project costs, said Ms. Stintz, who commutes on the subway three days a week.

“If we could find a way to manage that 20 per cent better by using Infrastructure Ontario, by using Metrolinx, by using corporations that have the project management expertise, we should do that,†Ms. Stintz said, adding the saved cash could be directed into operations and service improvements.

But service was not the focus for Mr. Ford. He is more interested in challenging the transit union. By giving control of operations to private business, he believes that the unions will lose their strength and commuters will no longer face threats of strike. (Mr. Giambrone, however, said unions would have legal protection, even under private operators.)

“People are just fed up with the system as it is now,†said Mr. Ford, who uses the TTC five or 10 times a year. “That last strike just sent the message to the taxpayers that they [the TTC] don't care. “

The call to have the province deem the TTC an “essential service†– and therefore stripping workers of their ability to strike – could achieve a similar end. The mayor has pledged a debate at his executive committee in September, and after that at city council.

“I think the TTC is a gem in Torono,†Mayor Miller said. “With appropriate investments … the TTC can again lead the world.â€

With files from Jeff Gray
 
“The bus services in the U.K. after privatization are just off-the-charts better than they were before,” he said. “Prices are way down, service is way up. … The best way to get around London these days is on the bus. No one takes the Underground.”

Outside of London bus ridership plummetted since the competing bus companies destroyed each other.

Inside London, TfL continued to hold control of bus routes and fares and tendered out operations. The fares are integrated with the Underground. They even struck a deal with Hugo Chavez to supply lower cost fuel for buses! Hardly a free market utopia!

And how could you say that "no one takes the Underground" when it's constantly crowded?!
 
Outside of London bus ridership plummetted since the competing bus companies destroyed each other.

Inside London, TfL continued to hold control of bus routes and fares and tendered out operations. The fares are integrated with the Underground. They even struck a deal with Hugo Chavez to supply lower cost fuel for buses! Hardly a free market utopia!

And how could you say that "no one takes the Underground" when it's constantly crowded?!

For sure. That quote really kills any credibility he has... "no one takes the Underground"? Ha!

Though bus fares are not integrated with the Underground. They're not even integrated with each bus. They have the Travelcard passes, but if you're paying single fares you still need to pay each time you transfer Bus<>Underground or Bus<>Bus.
 
Breaking up the TTC on the basis of labour issues seems a little extreme. There are labour issues in private industry as well. I would prefer to see a more effective and integrated transit system rather than a patchwork of private and public efforts.
 
Here's a question: what pay do drivers at York Region Transit make? Because that service is private outsourced.

It's interesting that very few people mention that YRT is privately operated under contract to York Region -- not the people who oppose privatization, and ALSO not the people who support it.

Why? Well for the opponents of privatization, YRT shows that private operation can be done.

But for supporters of privatization, I'd bet that it would also show that YRT drivers are NOT paid substantially less than those people operating buses in Mississauga, the TTC or Durham.

We should be open to the idea of contracting out. That's a political decision, and we might have some benefits like fewer strikes (YRT has four separate contracts, I believe, so rather than the threat every three years of a big strike taking out the entire system, we have more frequent threats of strikes taking out part of the system).

But those of us believing that contracting out will allow us to shave $5 per hour off of the standard wage of a driver have, unfortunately, dollar signs in your eyes and very few rational thoughts in their minds on this issue. As Dave Fischer (drum118) noted elsewhere, the TTC and GO Transit are having difficulty keeping drivers, because many leave to go to private charter companies where the rates of pay are roughly the same and they get tips.

Indeed, some take the TTC's extensive six week training program to get their upgraded drivers' license and then leave. That's unfortunate and frustrating, but this is what the marketplace does to you. Workers are mobile, and have the right to negotiate for the terms under which they work. As difficult as it is for some of you to believe, TTC workers are, by and large, earning what the capitalist marketplace has decided is the right price to bear.

...James
 
^^ Perhaps bus drivers get private sector wages, but the first faces people see in the TTC are ticket collectors and janitors.

The janitors can be easily contracted out for $10/hour (but surely provoke a strike). The ticket collectors could be abolished (more token machines installed to eliminate the need to pay cash fare, and day passes turned into magnetic cards), and their positions upgraded to "station management", acting as a customer service person. AFAIK management people cannot unionize and cannot strike. This plan would be an easy sell with the public and won't as likely trigger a union backlash (can't say for sure).

Oh, and change those dinky uniforms.
 
Let's eliminate more jobs in Toronto great fucking idea!

What are you going to do when Jarvis the computer driver shows up within the next 15 years on buses?

What are you going to do when robtic taken over most production lines 100% that can do more production work than humans can at a faction of the cost?

Got to change with time.
 
What are you going to do when Jarvis the computer driver shows up within the next 15 years on buses?

What are you going to do when robtic taken over most production lines 100% that can do more production work than humans can at a faction of the cost?

Got to change with time.

robots takeing over production lines? Now a days they send their production lines to mexico.
 
^^ Perhaps bus drivers get private sector wages, but the first faces people see in the TTC are ticket collectors and janitors.

The janitors can be easily contracted out for $10/hour (but surely provoke a strike). The ticket collectors could be abolished (more token machines installed to eliminate the need to pay cash fare, and day passes turned into magnetic cards), and their positions upgraded to "station management", acting as a customer service person. AFAIK management people cannot unionize and cannot strike. This plan would be an easy sell with the public and won't as likely trigger a union backlash (can't say for sure).

Oh, and change those dinky uniforms.

In terms of changing positions, you could probably transform the ticket collectors in two ways: "station managers" as has been suggested before, and also roving fare inspectors. One idea that would make a lot of sense in implementing a smart card system would be a wand-on when you enter the TTC and wand-off when you leave. If you leave within, say, two hours, a regular fare is charged to your smart card. If you take longer, or if you forget to wand off, the charge increases to a daily maximum of the price of a Day Pass, and your card becomes a day pass. The roving fare inspectors would scan cards at random to ensure that people wanded-on when they entered the system.
 
There are two more possible positions...

Platform staff: Some subway networks (like Hong Kong and Japan) have staff that sit at booths on subway station platforms. They handle passenger safety and security on the platforms (such as providing first aid), make safety announcements (such as train arrivals, train door closings, etc.), and help out with customer inquiries (like the fare collector upstairs). At rush hour additional platform staff can be brought in to handle crowds and act as "subway pushers".

In Hong Kong's MTR, the person who sits in the platform booth is responsible for closing the platform screen doors when the train operator closes the train doors.

Stationary Fare Inspector: I'm thinking of the TTC employee who inspects passes and transfers at the Dundas stop on the northbound Spadina streetcar, so that people can get on via the rear doors of the streetcar. There are certainly other busy streetcar stops in the city where such a person is needed.
 
Breaking up the TTC on the basis of labour issues seems a little extreme.

I don't think it should be done with labour as the primary reason. I think the possibilty of new routes and expanded service would be the real benefit. It's easy to point out the $27/hr wages as a reason to explore outsourcing, and so it gets a lot of play. The real benefits come from ideas that require serious research and are therefore beyond the scope of this forum, but worth examining on a conceptual level.
 

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