[EnviroTO]

With the housing crisis in the GTA, it would have been better to ask the government to release the land so that developers can build housing.

There is no shortage of land for housing. There is a shortage of reasonably priced vacant lots available for individual sale, both serviced lots that are available for people to buy that don't have a house on them, and a shortage of non-serviced lots that municipalities would allow you to build a residential home on. The developers have lots of land available to build you new homes at prices matching today's housing prices. Without solving (a) availability of empty lots available for individual sale, (b) trade labour shortages, and (c) supply shortages or cost increases, there will likely continue to be a housing crisis. Releasing land earmarked for an airport if the city should in the future require it so that it can be bought up by a few developers is not a good plan.

 

[lenaitch]

There is no shortage of land for housing. There is a shortage of reasonably priced vacant lots available for individual sale, both serviced lots that are available for people to buy that don't have a house on them, and a shortage of non-serviced lots that municipalities would allow you to build a residential home on. The developers have lots of land available to build you new homes at prices matching today's housing prices. Without solving (a) availability of empty lots available for individual sale, (b) trade labour shortages, and (c) supply shortages or cost increases, there will likely continue to be a housing crisis. Releasing land earmarked for an airport if the city should in the future require it so that it can be bought up by a few developers is not a good plan.

The days of privately or municipally-owned serviced lots is long over in the GTA. With raw land costs, no municipality or developer is willing to go to the expense of survey, plan of subdivision, laying in the infrastructure then waiting for lot buyers, which could take years to in-fill. The payback period is simply too long. The rural subdivision I am in (not in the GTA) was opened, in phases starting in 1994, and some lots still aren't built. The upfront costs were cheaper for the developer since we are all on well and septic.

Anything custom-built likely won't be any cheaper than a tract-built house unless it is a basic box, which municipalities likely won't approve and owners won't want to build. Individual builders don't have the economy of scale with suppliers, trades, engineers, etc.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

It was in regards to the 450km from Pearson to Ottawa argument.

Yes but my argument was that there was NO airport with scheduled flights in 450 km between Toronto and Ottawa. Meanwhile from Toronto to Windsor there are 4 (more if you count Detroit, Buffalo, and Niagara). I guess if you are going to argue for the closure of 2 or more airports in SWO you'd have an argument against one in the Eastern GTA, but honestly I'm not seeing anyone proposing that. Instead I'm seeing plans to expand them. So if 4+ airports serving a population of ~4 million, what's the argument against an airport to serve 1 million plus people? Other than "this will be a new build, while the others are already existing".

I mean do you think that 4+ airports in SWO is sufficient service for the population base or is the population base overserved?

The fact that there are 4 airports within the larger catchment area of SWO/GTA, is an even bigger argument for not building Pickering.

So, why should we open another GTA airport when one of them is still well under served?

The SWO airports do not serve eastern GTA residents, and travelling to Pearson from the East only exacerbates the horrible traffic experienced on major roads in the region.

 

[micheal_can]

Yes but my argument was that there was NO airport with scheduled flights in 450 km between Toronto and Ottawa. Meanwhile from Toronto to Windsor there are 4 (more if you count Detroit, Buffalo, and Niagara). I guess if you are going to argue for the closure of 2 or more airports in SWO you'd have an argument against one in the Eastern GTA, but honestly I'm not seeing anyone proposing that. Instead I'm seeing plans to expand them. So if 4+ airports serving a population of ~4 million, what's the argument against an airport to serve 1 million plus people? Other than "this will be a new build, while the others are already existing".

I mean do you think that 4+ airports in SWO is sufficient service for the population base or is the population base overserved?

For the GTA west, 4 airports are good enough. For GTA east, there is no need for more as Pearson is still close enough to them.

The SWO airports do not serve eastern GTA residents, and travelling to Pearson from the East only exacerbates the horrible traffic experienced on major roads in the region.

With the 407 completed, it is easy enough to bypass the trouble areas. If anything, this is a good reason for GO RER and the Midtown Corridor to be built.

 

[christiesplits]

Minister of Transport announces study on airport capacity needs in Southern Ontario - Skies Mag

Transport Canada has issued a Request for Proposals to hire an aviation professional services contractor to analyze current and future airport supply and demand in Southern Ontario.

skiesmag.com

Minister of Transport announces study on airport capacity needs in Southern Ontario​

TRANSPORT CANADA PRESS RELEASE | APRIL 18, 2023
Estimated reading time 3 minutes, 54 seconds.

Southern Ontario is Canada’s most populous area, with the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) alone home to over 6.3 million Canadians. Ontario’s population is also expected to grow significantly over the next two decades. This is why the Government of Canada needs to assess the requirement for additional airport capacity in the region.

Today, the Minister of Transport, the Honourable Omar Alghabra, announced that Transport Canada has issued a Request for Proposals to hire an aviation professional services contractor to help the department analyze current and future airport supply and demand in Southern Ontario. The contractor will assist Transport Canada officials in scoping the requirements for a comprehensive study of airport capacity in Southern Ontario, as well as a formal consultation process.

Following the scoping of work for the study, Transport Canada will post a second Request for Proposals to engage a third-party contractor to undertake the study as well as the consultation.

This analysis, as well as engagement with local stakeholders, the provincial and municipal governments, and Indigenous Peoples, is a first step towards making a final decision to address future airport capacity constraints in the region, and on the future of the Pickering Lands. We have no intention to proceed with building an airport on the Pickering Lands in the near term and the conclusions of the study could lead, for example, to a determination that an airport on the Pickering Lands is not required in the long term.

Quote

“Air travel is essential to growing an economy that works for everyone and creating good, middle-class jobs in Southern Ontario and the rest of the country. As we continue to support the recovery of the air sector, there is a need to study and understand the potential impacts of a growing population on existing airport infrastructure. Today is the beginning of a process to analyze the future of the Southern Ontario airport system. This work will also bring us closer to making a final decision on the Pickering Lands.”

The Honourable Omar Alghabra
Minister of Transport

This press release was prepared and distributed by Transport Canada

 

[turini2]

The more I here about Pickering - the more I think about Western Sydney Airport (Nancy-Bird Walton)!

Sydney (Kingsford Smith) Airport is surrounded by city and Botany Bay, so it's really hard to expand. It's limited by night flight restrictions.

As a consequence, a second airport for Sydney has been planned since the 60s, with the site chosen in the 80s, final decision to built in the 2010s, now under construction and due to open in 2026. Infrastructure includes a new motorway to the site, and a new metro line (Sydney Metro Greater West)...

Whether you think either Pickering or Western Sydney should be built in our Climate Emergency is another matter...

 

[SubHuman]

The more I here about Pickering - the more I think about Western Sydney Airport (Nancy-Bird Walton)!

Sydney (Kingsford Smith) Airport is surrounded by city and Botany Bay, so it's really hard to expand. It's limited by night flight restrictions...

Unlike Sydney, Pearson Airport can be expanded within its present boundaries, with more passenger terminal capacity and another runway. (The problems there in recent months were about staff shortages, not the size of the airport.)
https://cdn.torontopearson.com/-/me...orporate/our-future/pdfs/gtaa-master-plan.pdf
It has some minor constraints regarding overnight use, but not a curfew.

Noise operating restrictions

Pearson Airport noise operating restriction rules include engine run-up restrictions, restrictions by aircraft category and a night restriction program, which includes the use of runways that impact the fewest residential neighbourhoods.

www.torontopearson.com

 

[GioBuild]

Toronto is growing very very fast and will continue to do so for years. One major international airport, located in one part of the greater city, is not going to cut it moving into the future. To be a world class city, you need A LOT of infrastructure. And it's good to be pre-emptive not reactive when it comes to infrastructure building.

 

[micheal_can]

Toronto is growing very very fast and will continue to do so for years. One major international airport, located in one part of the greater city, is not going to cut it moving into the future. To be a world class city, you need A LOT of infrastructure. And it's good to be pre-emptive not reactive when it comes to infrastructure building.

Also, it seems to be growing more towards the west than the east. So, if a new airport should be built, it should be to the west.

 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

Also, it seems to be growing more towards the west than the east. So, if a new airport should be built, it should be to the west.

And of course, there is already Hamilton airport in the west. And capacity can be added at Hamilton if needs warrant it (two big ones would be a larger terminal with jet bridges, and new taxiways) for substantially less than a new greenfield airport. If the demand exists, there's nothing stopping GO from running buses to Hamilton connecting with trains at Aldershot either.

 

[micheal_can]

And of course, there is already Hamilton airport in the west. And capacity can be added at Hamilton if needs warrant it (two big ones would be a larger terminal with jet bridges, and new taxiways) for substantially less than a new greenfield airport. If the demand exists, there's nothing stopping GO from running buses to Hamilton connecting with trains at Aldershot either.

.. and Waterloo and London...

When I first heard of this airport idea. I thought it was a good idea. Then I learned more about the other airports and how airlines work. Now I do not see a reason for it.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Unlike Sydney, Pearson Airport can be expanded within its present boundaries, with more passenger terminal capacity and another runway. (The problems there in recent months were about staff shortages, not the size of the airport.)
https://cdn.torontopearson.com/-/me...orporate/our-future/pdfs/gtaa-master-plan.pdf
It has some minor constraints regarding overnight use, but not a curfew.

Noise operating restrictions

Pearson Airport noise operating restriction rules include engine run-up restrictions, restrictions by aircraft category and a night restriction program, which includes the use of runways that impact the fewest residential neighbourhoods.

www.torontopearson.com

The most recent master plan (2017) indicated a projected maximum passenger capacity of ~70 million passengers per year in 2037. At that point the constraining factor in serving more passengers is the runway system, not the terminal system. This can be mitigated by twinning runway 05/23 and shifting to larger aircraft flying less frequently in to the airport. However at some point in the next 50 odd years Pearson will max out. Hamilton/Waterloo/London are good starts to offload some demand from YYZ and I'd like to see a plan to do that.

 

[SubHuman]

Some interesting comments in this document re Peterborough Airport - see section 5.5 - despite having extended their runway to 7,000 feet, and being easier to access from Durham Region than Pearson, especially with the 407 extension coming on line, commercial flights are effectively zero and don't show much potential...

I didn't know Boeing 737s have been using it since 2014. It was a 737-800 for the first time yesterday. But there's not much of a demand if it's only a few charter flights a year.

 

[Tim MacDonald]

I didn't know Boeing 737s have been using it since 2014. It was a 737-800 for the first time yesterday. But there's not much of a demand if it's only a few charter flights a year.

If I'm not mistaken, 319s had been rolling through there for a while now. Not sure if it was for paint or other servicing.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I didn't know Boeing 737s have been using it since 2014. It was a 737-800 for the first time yesterday. But there's not much of a demand if it's only a few charter flights a year.

Might be a case of simply not being located near the main population centre of the larger region (Eastern Toronto/Scarborough, Durham) thus not being able to draw enough people away.

A quick map check. From the halfway point between Pearson and Peterborough (roughly Brooklin) estimated drive times to Pearson are 43 mins (1.5 hrs if avoiding tolls). Whereas drive times to Peterborough are 42 mins (51 if avoiding tolls). A large majority of the potential catchment area live west of the halfway point and Peterborough just feels like "all the way over there' compared to Pearson despite being roughly the same distance.

Maybe if Peterborough were large enough to demand scheduled service in it's own right then there would be some appeal for eastern GTA'ers to drive out to Peterborough , in the same way that some drive out to Buffalo (pricing dependant).

But hey, there's another airport I'm not against examining the potential for growth.