[EnviroTO]

There is no point in arguing with you Dentrobate54. Some people are conspiracy theorists like yourself and there is little we can do to help you see reality. It is like arguing about whether or not the USA went to the moon or a passenger jet hit the pentagon. I'm sure that you believe your linguistic skills are exemplary and that us mocking them is racism. I'm sure you believe that only racists could be against this voluntary segregation school. Every time you have ever been turned down in a job interview you probably think it is racism. Every time a bus pulls away before you reach the bus stop you probably think it is racism. Every time a black person shoots a black person you probably think it is white society's fault. Every time a black person gets poor grades you probably think it is white society's fault. When ever there is a circumstance that might be racism you assume it is racism rather than being more optimistic and assuming that it isn't racism.

The reality though is the number of racist individuals is a small portion of the population. The reality is that probably more people are judged based on clothing than are judged based on race. The reality is that non-whites are just as likely to be racists as whites. The reality is that jumping to the conclusion of racism is just as damaging as actual racism. People need to be responsible for their own success and failures. It really removes self-motivation when every mistake made can be polished over with an accusation of a racist system. What is the motivation to work hard when you can blame the system instead?

You admit that the drop out rate is high but then look at the racial makeup of top jobs as if education and skills aren't part of what determines who gets those jobs. You don't seem to realize that an ethnic group with a lower level of education on average aren't as likely to get top jobs. You are just like the womens rights activists who would expect employment numbers in secretarial and engineering jobs to be balanced between men and women when women weren't applying to engineering school in anywhere near the same numbers as men and men weren't applying for secretarial positions.

I feel sorry for you Dentrobate54... your version of reality looks pretty bad. Too bad it isn't the real reality. Too bad you don't realize that so many non-blacks don't have the easy life you think they do. Too bad you don't understand that freedom means accountability for ones actions. Too bad you have chosen to be one of the people who assumes racism in absence of the facts because that will lead to lower self esteem and greater resentment. If I were to jump to the conclusion that everything bad that happened to me was due to the way I looked I can imagine how harmful that would be to my spirit.

I'm not denying racism exists. I have been a victim of racism myself. I am not justifying racism nor am I accepting of it. I just don't believe that it exists the way you say it does.

 

[theowne]

Can't we all just get along!?!?

Watch this--> http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y9KC7uhMY9s

 

[Undying42]

I think minorities still have a very valid argument for being upset over racial/ethnic/gender inequity they face within a society that's nowhere near the racial parity asserted by talking heads. And also by individuals whose personal bias makes them either ignore or even sabotage the efforts of social activists striving to enlighten the general public about the harsh realities of being a discriminated against person in this country.

 

[Hydrogen]

Nobody ever said that there were no valid reasons to be upset with respect to racial/ethnic/gender inequity. At the same time, those inequities have been greatly reduced. To state such a fact is not sabotaging the cries of social activists, nor is it a bias; but merely to point out the positive results that are so easily overlooked by those wishing to only underline and emphasize the negative.

 

[theowne]

Let me also say that in all of the countries I have been in, Canada is the most tolerant and racially friendly I have ever seen. Does racism still exist? Yes, probably. But that doesn't mean the society is racist. I am very, very happy to be a Canadian and I thank God that I am not in America where they still seem to be stuck in the past. For example, you have that radio guy who went up for McCain and essentially made fun of Obama's Muslim middle name (and was cheered on). Can you imagine that happening in a Canadian election rally or such? The guy would probably get weird looks.

 

[Undying42]

That's the problem in of itself though. The racism/segregation here isn't as visible and recognizable as it is in the United States. Hence unless you're personally a victim of it, most citizens are unaware that such discrimination can and often does go on in Canada. I suppose it's alot less prevalent for visible minorities living in Toronto or Vancouver than say Calgary or Winnepeg, but ignoring that there's a problem outright is public apathy that results in only compounding the problem. One racist that gets away with harming minorities can easily motivate others to attempt the same.

Vocalizing these incidents on a case to case basis mediates to the general public that minorities aren't deserving of and won't tolerate discrimination. The hope is that in time, the need for cultural sensitivity training won't even be necessary, because society as a whole will be litmus paper and watchkeepers in the cause to silence racists/bigots for good so that we can all move forward as one society, one humanity.

 

[Steve_D]

I suppose it's alot less prevalent for visible minorities living in Toronto or Vancouver than say Calgary or Winnepeg, but ignoring that there's a problem outright is public apathy that results in only compounding the problem.

Ignoring the invisible minority, as you have, is a greater injustice in my opinion. It's just another aspect of racism.

 

[Undying42]

Invisible minority? Could you elaborate on that please?

 

[Steve_D]

It's the opposite of visible minority. The federal government uses the term a lot.
A "non flaming queen" homosexual is a member of a minority that is not visible, hence, invisible minority.

 

[EnviroTO]

That's the problem in of itself though. The racism/segregation here isn't as visible and recognizable as it is in the United States. Hence unless you're personally a victim of it, most citizens are unaware that such discrimination can and often does go on in Canada.

I don't think anyone on here denies racism exists in Canada. Most of the debate was to highlight the point that racism does not only impact one group, that accusations of racism without fully understanding what transpired are harmful to those accused and the spirit of those who believed it occurred, and that racism can't be solved by racial division. Racism is not black and white as much as certain people want to believe it is.

One racist that gets away with harming minorities can easily motivate others to attempt the same.

We certainly don't want racism going unpunished but we need to define what is racism and what is not. We need to crack down on obvious racism but at the same time need to be optimistic that not everything negative which transpires between people of different races must be racism. We need to see that racism can be seen as something as simple as not having a diversity of races in your close friends, not saying hello to a member of a different race on the street, being fearful when a gang of youth approach you in the night, to calling someone a name when that one specific person made you upset, to disapproving of a marriage because of race, to bias when provided with two equal job applicants, to approving of a race or faith focused school, to painting all members of a certain race with the same brush, to seeking conflict with member of another race, and the list goes on. To define racism as a person who says a specific word misses what racism actually is. Racism is not treating people as equal based on race. It is quite possible that in this case had the lady not been black he would have also had an expletive for that person as well... that means he would have been treating people equally. A word is only a sound coming out of a mouth... it is the actions and meanings of the word that matter.

Vocalizing these incidents on a case to case basis mediates to the general public that minorities aren't deserving of and won't tolerate discrimination. The hope is that in time, the need for cultural sensitivity training won't even be necessary, because society as a whole will be litmus paper and watchkeepers in the cause to silence racists/bigots for good so that we can all move forward as one society, one humanity.

Should a white person be able to fire a non-white person? Should any incident of a white person firing a non-white person go to the press as an example of racism? Sometimes when it occurs it could be racism, but sometimes it is not. The person we were arguing with was pro-segregation, felt tax dollars should support a segregation, as long as the segregation is voluntary. That is racism. Why aren't we locking the people up that support Catholic schools, black schools, etc? If white people avoid black people "voluntarily" in society obviously it denies equality but this is exactly what the black school proposes to do in reverse.

 

[EnviroTO]

Let me add two personal observations:

The first is about a black lady who applied for an HR position at a company I was working at in the United States. She was declined employment. She sent a letter in complaining about how she felt she was being discriminated against and how she was considering her legal options. The person who was hired was also a black lady. Now does this story deny racism exists? Of course not. Does this story deny that the lady "felt" discriminated against or deny that feeling discriminated against harmed her spirit? Definitely not. Thinking she was discriminated against "feels" the same as being discriminated against. The truth of the matter though is that believing racism occurred doesn't equate to racism actually occurring.

Another experience of mine was attending a fund raising dance for a Vietnamese community soccer team back when I was in University in London Ontario. As it turns out a certain group of the community whom I had never met had an issue with a white person being at the dance and as I was leaving for the night after an uneventful and enjoyable evening I was met by a group led by a person who first said "you don't look Vietnamese" and then proceeded to punch me, others in his group had baseball bats and I fled inside. I had never been so scared in my life. Inside I was attacked by some 20 or so people, some who were smashing cans on my head (fortunately no bottles and bats got inside), I was getting pummeled and my ears were ringing with the sound of each blow, and I had no way to escape except for a Vietnamese girl who knew me and some of the assailants put herself in the middle of things just long enough for me to run out the fire escape, and drive out of the parking lot. A few cars gave chase but I lost them. Had I not escaped there would be a great chance I would be dead today because the baseball bats certainly weren't for baseball at midnight. Something like that happening to you changes your view of the world in some ways permanently. It is a loss of innocence which makes you look over your shoulder more and be more apprehensive when dealing with people. I'm a person who has never laid a finger on anyone in my life but ever since that incident it always crosses my mind to have a fighting strategy. People will perhaps look at my story differently than if I had been a minority and they had been the majority... but they shouldn't. Racism is the same thing regardless of who it happens to. Until people can see white = asian = black = every other race then there is still racism.

 

[Undying42]

It's the opposite of visible minority. The federal government uses the term a lot.
A "non flaming queen" homosexual is a member of a minority that is not visible, hence, invisible minority.

Oh, I see. Both racism and homophobia are wrong mentalities. If I overlooked that I'm sorry. Straight-acting gays however can blend in, while visible minorities are differentiated from a mile away. I suppose double minorities have it the worst off though, as these individuals can never be fully accepted by any social norm groups within society: white or black [or another ethnicity], gay or straight.

We certainly don't want racism going unpunished but we need to define what is racism and what is not. We need to crack down on obvious racism but at the same time need to be optimistic that not everything negative which transpires between people of different races must be racism.

True, I agree. Personal biases can often compromise one's objectivity when examining these issues. At the same time, people are sometimes duplicitous and can say one thing to your face and do harmful actions against you just as readily. Not every instance of this is racism, it could be discrimination based on something else. But when there's circumstantial evidence to suggest the former, we shouldn't be afraid to ask these questions and breach those uncomfortable silences.

Should a white person be able to fire a non-white person? Should any incident of a white person firing a non-white person go to the press as an example of racism? Sometimes when it occurs it could be racism, but sometimes it is not. The person we were arguing with was pro-segregation, felt tax dollars should support a segregation, as long as the segregation is voluntary. That is racism. Why aren't we locking the people up that support Catholic schools, black schools, etc? If white people avoid black people "voluntarily" in society obviously it denies equality but this is exactly what the black school proposes to do in reverse.

There's already 36 alternative schools in the TDSB system, what's one more going to do? No matter what becomes of the black-focused program, I'm at least glad there's a public outcry to assist these marginalized and underpriviledged students on the verge of dropping out. Increasing the number of black students that successfully graduate, earn a Bachelor's/Master's and join the workforce; the better it is for society as a whole. Doing next to nothing to help, only stagnates their progress and potential.

 

[Undying42]

Something like that happening to you changes your view of the world in some ways permanently. It is a loss of innocence which makes you look over your shoulder more and be more apprehensive when dealing with people. I'm a person who has never laid a finger on anyone in my life but ever since that incident it always crosses my mind to have a fighting strategy. People will perhaps look at my story differently than if I had been a minority and they had been the majority... but they shouldn't. Racism is the same thing regardless of who it happens to. Until people can see white = asian = black = every other race then there is still racism.

Sorry you had to experience that.

I can totally emphasize with your 'loss of innocence' as certain things I've seen and experienced has shed me of my naviety and made me somewhat skeptical of people's trustworthiness and motives. I think paranoia is more reactive than proactive though. No one starts out racist, but peer pressure and the media sometimes makes it difficult not to view the world from various angles and binaries. I think tu quos can be overcome though, and we should strive daily not to do unto others what we wouldn't want done onto ourselves!

 

[Steve_D]

we should strive daily not to do unto others what we wouldn't want done onto ourselves!

Have you read the entire thread?

 

[Undying42]

Enough to gather the gist of the conversation. Why?