nfitz
Superstar
Perfectly true. How many buses a day are there from Peterborough to Ottawa and Peterborough to Montreal. Hmm, and from Peterborough to Kingston.
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- Thread starter isittimetomoveyet
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toraerach
Active Member
According to the Greyhound website there are two buses that leave Peterborough for Ottawa each day. There are no direct buses to Montreal or Kingston. In fact, looking at the website, I don't know why anyone would take the Greyhound from Peterborough to Kingston - ~11 and a half hours and ~$170. There used to be Toronto-Peterborough-Ottawa-Montreal buses, but I don't think Greyhound runs them anymore. Anecdotally, I've noticed in general fewer Toronto-Ottawa/Toronto-Ottawa-Pembroke buses coming through Peterborough. Again, anecdotally speaking, I think most Peterborough-Ottawa bus trips are made by Trent/Fleming students - mostly weekend/holiday traffic that probably doesn't warrant a rail connection.
If Peterborough gets a train service, there is only enough potential ridership for service to Toronto. Kingston, which I imagine falls more under Ottawa's sphere of influence, would probably have more riders headed both East and West. Again, it really doesn't matter since the terrain around Peterborough is pretty difficult. I went out to Campbellford this morning, driving along Highway 7 right beside the Havelock sub for much of the way. I highly doubt the people of Norwood, Havelock, etc. whose downtowns are bisected by the railway would appreciate a huge increase in rail traffic on the line. There would be very little benefit to the people in these towns, and the way they're set up, frequent service would be pretty disruptive. There are houses, businesses, and cemeteries built right up to the rail line, and I'm sure many beautiful historic buildings would have to be destroyed to make way for a second track/electrification.
A Kingston alignment would pass through small towns and cities too, but those communities already have train service. Track improvements that HSR would require would benefit local service to those communities as well.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
I am a bit confused when people are talking about an HSR stopping in these small towns, HSR around the world from what i know is about a system that runs pretty fast and direct from big city to big city, Whats the point of taking fast rail if its has many stops and takes forever.
toraerach
Active Member
I am a bit confused when people are talking about an HSR stopping in these small towns, HSR around the world from what i know is about a system that runs pretty fast and direct from big city to big city, Whats the point of taking fast rail if its has many stops and takes forever.
Exactly. A Peterborough alignment would see construction and service run through small towns that aren't served by VIA. These communities would not be serviced by rail at all, but would have to put up with major disruptions due to the trains. Along a Kingston alignment, small towns and cities would continue to be served by VIA while HSR would skip them over. They would have some rail service at least compensating them for the trains shooting through their communities. There really should be as few stations as possible along this alignment. Between Toronto and Ottawa, the only real stop that needs to be served is Kingston as it is an important regional centre. Oshawa might also warrant it's own station with GO bus connections to Peterborough. Other than those two cities, I see no need for other stations except for possibly at Trenton or Bellville, then serving more as a transfer station from VIA than anything else.
An alignment through Peterborough wouldn't have the same potential from local VIA service from smaller centres.
Ansem
Banned
Obama signals high-speed rail push:$13-billion boost:Northeast route to link Montreal
http://www.montrealgazette.com/Business/Obama+signals+high+speed+rail+push/1504408/story.html
U.S. President Barack Obama yesterday called for a U.S. high speed rail service to rival the express trains of France, Japan, Spain and China, highlighting a $13-billion government funding boost.
"Imagine whisking through towns at speeds over 100 miles an hour, walking only a few steps to public transportation and ending up just blocks from your destination," Obama said before leaving on a trip to Mexico and Trinidad.
"It is being done - it is just not being done here," said Obama, mentioning rapid train services in France, Spain, China and Japan.
"There is no reason why we can't do this - this is America. There is no reason why the future of travel should lie somewhere else beyond our borders.
"My high-speed rail proposal will lead to innovations that change the way we travel in America," Obama said at an event with Vice-President Joe Biden, a former rail commuter whom he described as "America's No. 1 rail fan."
"We must start developing clean, energy-efficient transportation that will define our regions for centuries to come," Obama said, touting at least $13 billion for high-speed rail in his $787 billion economic recovery plan and future federal budgets.
"High-speed rail is long overdue, and this plan lets American travellers know that they are not doomed to a future of long lines at the airports or jammed cars on the highways," Obama said.
Obama's strategy envisions 10 high speed rail corridors, including in California, Pacific Northwestern states, the Southern United States, the Gulf Coast and Florida.
He is billing it as an environmentally friendly effort which will not only ease transit gridlock, but create jobs amid the worst economic slump in decades.
About $8 billion are provided for high-speed links under the stimulus plan and $1 billion a year for five years in the federal budget as a "downpayment" on a new service.
Biden, who as a senator used to commute daily between his home state of Delaware and Washington aboard Amtrak services, argued that railways were not a relic of the past, but instead the transport of the future.
"It is about time we took those railways and made them the national treasures they should be," Biden said "They are the best way to reconnect and connect communities to each other, to move us all forward in the 21st century."
A route based in New England would link Boston, Montreal, Portland, Springfield, New Haven and Albany, while the plan foresees a new rail hub network in Chicago linking Midwest cities.
© Copyright (c) The Montreal Gazette
http://www.montrealgazette.com/Business/Obama+signals+high+speed+rail+push/1504408/story.html
U.S. President Barack Obama yesterday called for a U.S. high speed rail service to rival the express trains of France, Japan, Spain and China, highlighting a $13-billion government funding boost.
"Imagine whisking through towns at speeds over 100 miles an hour, walking only a few steps to public transportation and ending up just blocks from your destination," Obama said before leaving on a trip to Mexico and Trinidad.
"It is being done - it is just not being done here," said Obama, mentioning rapid train services in France, Spain, China and Japan.
"There is no reason why we can't do this - this is America. There is no reason why the future of travel should lie somewhere else beyond our borders.
"My high-speed rail proposal will lead to innovations that change the way we travel in America," Obama said at an event with Vice-President Joe Biden, a former rail commuter whom he described as "America's No. 1 rail fan."
"We must start developing clean, energy-efficient transportation that will define our regions for centuries to come," Obama said, touting at least $13 billion for high-speed rail in his $787 billion economic recovery plan and future federal budgets.
"High-speed rail is long overdue, and this plan lets American travellers know that they are not doomed to a future of long lines at the airports or jammed cars on the highways," Obama said.
Obama's strategy envisions 10 high speed rail corridors, including in California, Pacific Northwestern states, the Southern United States, the Gulf Coast and Florida.
He is billing it as an environmentally friendly effort which will not only ease transit gridlock, but create jobs amid the worst economic slump in decades.
About $8 billion are provided for high-speed links under the stimulus plan and $1 billion a year for five years in the federal budget as a "downpayment" on a new service.
Biden, who as a senator used to commute daily between his home state of Delaware and Washington aboard Amtrak services, argued that railways were not a relic of the past, but instead the transport of the future.
"It is about time we took those railways and made them the national treasures they should be," Biden said "They are the best way to reconnect and connect communities to each other, to move us all forward in the 21st century."
A route based in New England would link Boston, Montreal, Portland, Springfield, New Haven and Albany, while the plan foresees a new rail hub network in Chicago linking Midwest cities.
© Copyright (c) The Montreal Gazette
Ansem
Banned
To my understanding, the problem in the past was that the americans were not willing to build HSR New York to Montreal because at least 85% of the tracks were in the American side.
This is an historic moment because now the US are willing to do it and Premier Charest from Quebec is willing to do it The governor of New York and himself agrees on the project.
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualite...aux-etats-unis-obama-fait-rever-le-quebec.php
If Montreal gets that train, The federal government would have no choice but to make the HSR from Quebec to Windsor.
How foolish would he look if he would still try to convince us that all we need is a 30 min improvment on the corridor???
Now that the Americans agrees, both Premiers for Ontarion and quebec plus the New York governor wants it, the federal government have to do it.
I think this is reason enough for me to vote liberal next time.
This is an historic moment because now the US are willing to do it and Premier Charest from Quebec is willing to do it The governor of New York and himself agrees on the project.
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualite...aux-etats-unis-obama-fait-rever-le-quebec.php
If Montreal gets that train, The federal government would have no choice but to make the HSR from Quebec to Windsor.
How foolish would he look if he would still try to convince us that all we need is a 30 min improvment on the corridor???
Now that the Americans agrees, both Premiers for Ontarion and quebec plus the New York governor wants it, the federal government have to do it.
I think this is reason enough for me to vote liberal next time.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
As usual Toronto is not mentioned.
Ansem
Banned
As usual Toronto is not mentioned.
Montreal is closer to new york and it's almost a straight line.
It would be more expensive from toronto.
That's why I think it would make more sense to connect Toronto to Montreal
Automation Gallery
Superstar
Toronto is 120 miles further, but again if traveling in a future HSR line it would make more sense to go south through Buffalo which would be 120 miles shorter than going through Montreal. Ontario at the moment should worry first about building a HSR line between Toronto-London-Windsor to connect with the future US midwest route, and Toronto-New York State to connect with a future US, Buffalo-Rochester-Syaracuse-Albany- New York line.
MisterF
Senior Member
Why? That's not where the demand is. While car traffic to Detroit and Buffalo is comparable, there are far more flights, trains, and buses going to Ottawa and Montreal. Besides, HSR is a nation-building exercise so the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto corridor is by far the first priority.
nfitz
Superstar
You seem to be assuming that we need to connect ourselves to an American HSR network. But HSR is only really effective or competive for travel times up to about 3 hours or so. So that only gives you 500 to ... maybe 700 km.
Which means Montreal is just about at the limit of what makes sense for HSR from Toronto. And your only other real destination is Detroit/Windsor (and points in between).
The reason that Montreal to New York is being considered is that it's only 600 km (compared to 540 km from Toronto) - and also gives a chance to service Albany from New York City. Even Buffalo to New York City (through Albany) is 700 km, making it pretty iffy. Toronto at 855 km is not in the running.
They best you can ever hope for, in our lifetimes is Montreal-Toronto (through Ottawa). Montreal- New York (through Albany). Toronto-Detroit (through Windsor and London). Perhaps Quebec City to Montreal and Calgary to Edmonton if their respectives Provinces push it.
Of course, from Detroit, there would likely be trains to Chicago. Etc. And I'm sure there will be more Toronto-Buffalo (or at least Niagara Falls) trains of the more conventional variety.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
I guess it all depends on the speed of the rail system being proposed. The speeds on the Japanese system were 210km/h in the beginning but are at 300km/h now and are expected to have runs scheduled at 320km/h in the near future. If a new age high-speed rail system is built then a trip length of under 900km is feasible. Looking at the money that has been set aside I can't see a true high-speed rail network coming out of this. If all the money that has been budgeted was used solely in the Northeast corridor it might be able to create a true high-speed system with average speeds above 210km/h but spread out across the entire United States I can't see it accomplishing much.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Although, I would personally support a routing through Kingston, I will throw out a radical suggestion: Railfans should support Dean Del Maestro's campaign.
Any routing along the shoreline will undoubtedly create demands for a stop. It'll be no different than Blue 22 being forced to put in a stop at Weston. In a classic Canadian compromise, we'll end up with a high speed train that takes 3 hours probably has ten stops between Union and Ottawa. The only stops we'd probably eliminate are the obvious ones like Port Hope and Trenton.
Conversely, a northern routing would likely result in far fewer stops. We would get a metro-to-metro service with the odd stop such as in Peterborough.
Okay, personally I'd rather have the 3 hr ten stop train ride....but I am throwing it out there for discussion. Would the northern route be faster because there would be less demands for intermediate stops?
Any routing along the shoreline will undoubtedly create demands for a stop. It'll be no different than Blue 22 being forced to put in a stop at Weston. In a classic Canadian compromise, we'll end up with a high speed train that takes 3 hours probably has ten stops between Union and Ottawa. The only stops we'd probably eliminate are the obvious ones like Port Hope and Trenton.
Conversely, a northern routing would likely result in far fewer stops. We would get a metro-to-metro service with the odd stop such as in Peterborough.
Okay, personally I'd rather have the 3 hr ten stop train ride....but I am throwing it out there for discussion. Would the northern route be faster because there would be less demands for intermediate stops?
Whoaccio
Senior Member
Would there be enough space in a "shoreline" routing to shoehorn an HSR line into the 401 corridor? That could save some costs versus blasting through the wilds of Eastern Ontario by taking a more northerly route. Not just from lower land aquisition costs (and possible native treaty claims...), but from easier access to construction sites.
Anyways, have any of the previous HSR studies considered having the last leg of an HSR jump across the Detroit river to Detroit? For an extra 5 km or so, it would add a pretty big market. Not that Detroit is in the best of shape, but it is still bigger than Montreal.
Anyways, have any of the previous HSR studies considered having the last leg of an HSR jump across the Detroit river to Detroit? For an extra 5 km or so, it would add a pretty big market. Not that Detroit is in the best of shape, but it is still bigger than Montreal.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Just to add to the discussion. Although, Kingston has fewer buses running to it, aside from more train traffic, Air Canada operates 6-8 flights a day to Kingston from Pearson. Should a HSR connect to Pearson, then it's quite likely that those flights would be unnecessary. It's far more comfortable to take a train to Kingston than it would be to fly the small dinky 18 seat commuter plane there (only two flights a day are AC Jazz using 37 seat Dash 8s).