Admiral Beez
Superstar
Obviously by their lack of interest, Vison Zero and overall road safety can not rely on the TPS.
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- Thread starter salsa
- Start date
crs1026
Superstar
.^I’m as bothered as anybody, but I think we need to see this as a case of “be careful what you ask for”, as opposed to slagging TPS as somehow indifferent to things.
A single traffic charge can tie up an awful lot of an officer’s time, with paperwork, court appearances, etc. Those court appearances may take an officer off the streets, outside their regular shift schedule, and/or onto overtime pay pretty quickly. Add in a deferment to a new court date, and it gets silly. A time-honoured tactic to beat a traffic ticket has always been to take the case to court, and just hope the officer doesn’t appear.
Plus, while the officer is sitting in their cruiser writing up the ticket, they are probably hearing more urgent calls being dispatched on their radio. Pretty easy forthe average officer to get jaded.
I can understand why the police brass, under extreme pressure to cut costs, and faced with the mounting labour costs that I spoke to earlier, have seen traffic enforcement as the right thing to cut. And if this resonated well with the pols, so much the better. Those decisions might have well made sense, had we been able to leverage technology as hoped.... but the photo radar and red light cameras never really turned up.
I wonder how many hours of traffic officer time were cut from 23 Division to free up officers to follow Rob Ford and his sidekick around looking for crack videos! Or for that matter, how many additional hours are being spent chasing down handgun crimes and shootings versus the reduction in traffic enforcement? Would we rather see TPS try to solve the Sherman murders, or close that file and put the resources into traffic enforcement? I am not taking a position on any of that, I’m just pointing out that the TPS resource pool is finite, and there’s a lot of stuff going on, and these are exactly the choices the TPS brass must make.
Before we blame TPS, maybe we have to look at the whole enforcement regime and look for ways to make it cheaper and less officer-intensive. One option is to streamline the court system and remove some of the loopholes that tie up police.
Here’s an extreme thought: maybe we ought to fall back on the premise that driving is a privilege, not a right. A HTA offense may be more of a civil matter. Lower the standard of proof from the criminal “beyond reasonable doubt” to the civil standard of “reasonable probability”. Let the cameras do the talking, and rely less on sworn testimony.
I would also look at how court appearances mesh with TPS’s shift scheduling provisions, and I would get back on track with lower-paid traffic wardens. I suspect the pols have been tiptoeing around some hard core union resistance that has to be overcome.
Just a bunch of thoughts. Sorry to be verbose.
- Paul
A single traffic charge can tie up an awful lot of an officer’s time, with paperwork, court appearances, etc. Those court appearances may take an officer off the streets, outside their regular shift schedule, and/or onto overtime pay pretty quickly. Add in a deferment to a new court date, and it gets silly. A time-honoured tactic to beat a traffic ticket has always been to take the case to court, and just hope the officer doesn’t appear.
Plus, while the officer is sitting in their cruiser writing up the ticket, they are probably hearing more urgent calls being dispatched on their radio. Pretty easy forthe average officer to get jaded.
I can understand why the police brass, under extreme pressure to cut costs, and faced with the mounting labour costs that I spoke to earlier, have seen traffic enforcement as the right thing to cut. And if this resonated well with the pols, so much the better. Those decisions might have well made sense, had we been able to leverage technology as hoped.... but the photo radar and red light cameras never really turned up.
I wonder how many hours of traffic officer time were cut from 23 Division to free up officers to follow Rob Ford and his sidekick around looking for crack videos! Or for that matter, how many additional hours are being spent chasing down handgun crimes and shootings versus the reduction in traffic enforcement? Would we rather see TPS try to solve the Sherman murders, or close that file and put the resources into traffic enforcement? I am not taking a position on any of that, I’m just pointing out that the TPS resource pool is finite, and there’s a lot of stuff going on, and these are exactly the choices the TPS brass must make.
Before we blame TPS, maybe we have to look at the whole enforcement regime and look for ways to make it cheaper and less officer-intensive. One option is to streamline the court system and remove some of the loopholes that tie up police.
Here’s an extreme thought: maybe we ought to fall back on the premise that driving is a privilege, not a right. A HTA offense may be more of a civil matter. Lower the standard of proof from the criminal “beyond reasonable doubt” to the civil standard of “reasonable probability”. Let the cameras do the talking, and rely less on sworn testimony.
I would also look at how court appearances mesh with TPS’s shift scheduling provisions, and I would get back on track with lower-paid traffic wardens. I suspect the pols have been tiptoeing around some hard core union resistance that has to be overcome.
Just a bunch of thoughts. Sorry to be verbose.
- Paul
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TossYourJacket
Senior Member
As a counter-point, we know they weren't spending time the time they saved cutting traffic enforcement trying to find Bruce McArthur until he'd killed 8 people. I think it's very fair to question the priorities of TPS even if those priorities have been forced by our politicians starving the police of money.
As for traffic enforcement reduction, I think the idea of moving towards more technology had a decent premise, the issue was that they cut the non-technology part before they ever got any of the tech that was supposed to replace it, which is not how you do any kind of functional transition program at all. You don't just go "well i sure hope those cameras show up someday" and move on assuming it'll all work out okay, which is basically what they did.
The whole thing has just been horribly mismanaged by both TPS and the politicians at the municipal and provincial levels.
picard102
Senior Member
That's not a counter-point, it's just a snide comment.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
salsa
Senior Member
None of this excuses the fact that the police chief lied to us for years when he denied that police had stopped enforcing traffic laws, when it turns out he was the one who pulled officers from traffic duty. He ignored the data showing that this was failing, hid this data from the public, and continued to gaslight us right up till the day he confessed. His actions have directly resulted in loss of life and a culture of lawlessness on our streets. The fact that he still gets to keep his job and continue his tone-deaf rants about dark clothing and headphones that is entirely unsupported by evidence, is almost as disgusting as the carnage that has happened.
lenaitch
Senior Member
I'm not close enough to the issues to comment on the factors that impact on TPS staffing or deployment, but do know that day-to-day law enforcement has become much more time and labour intensive, caused by both the courts and government policy. I saw a statistical study a while back which showed that a domestic violence incident that resulted in a charge consumed approximately 12 person hours from arrival to charge processing (not counting court attendance). Not that all of that necessarily happens in a linear manner or is even done by one member, but theoretically, if a member is dispatched to a 'domestic' at the beginning of the shift, they are done for the shift. Government policy is now that if prima facia evidence exists, a charge must be laid and the suspect arrested and bail opposed. This is not a comment on the seriousness of domestic violence, simply an analysis of the impact. Similarly, an impaired driver now takes about six hours of members' time, about double what it used to. Also, there are a large and increasing number of 'mental distress' calls. If a person is taken into custody for an involuntary assessment, the cops are going to be tied up in Emerg just like paramedics are - waited for the medical staff to see them.
Technology can help, but technology needs data and data must be inputted. Things like voice-to-text are being refined, and in things like reports, a margin of error is acceptable, but in things like statements from a witness or accused, absolute accuracy is crucial to the justice system, which means they have to be audited, word for word.
A very long way of saying that, as you say, resources are finite.
TossYourJacket
Senior Member
Seriously, how are we supposed to trust him or the police when they do things like this. Certainly as others have said above, there is a resources issue, but that does not excuse the sustained campaign of gaslighting from Saunders. There are dozens of people who died or where horribly injured as a result of these actions and apparently we're just supposed to be okay with that now that TPS realised they made a mistake.
salsa
Senior Member
While the Toronto Police only have six officers dedicated to enforcing traffic infractions in the entire city, John Tory's priority is to crack down on fare evasion by hiring 50 new TTC enforcement officers.
tiffer24
Senior Member
Toronto Police Operations@TPSOperations
1 hour ago
COLLISION: Oakwood Av + Clovelly Av - 2 pedestrians struck - Woman and child struck by car - Unknown injuries - Car has remained o/s - Oakwood closed in area #GO2423569
salsa
Senior Member
The carnage just never ends.
Toronto Police Operations@TPSOperations
1 hour ago
COLLISION: Oakwood Av + Clovelly Av - 2 pedestrians struck - Woman and child struck by car - Unknown injuries - Car has remained o/s - Oakwood closed in area #GO2423569
https://twitter.com/TPSOperations/status/1205264295849840640
11th
Senior Member
I am interested to see a comparison to other cities' pedestrian/cyclists/vehicles collisions statistics.
Toronto has its share of shitty drivers, but there are cities with worse; and incidents aren't heard of daily.
Toronto has its share of shitty drivers, but there are cities with worse; and incidents aren't heard of daily.
salsa
Senior Member
Today begins the installation of speed cameras across the city, as part of Vision Zero. As usual, I feel we could do better.
Below are the maps of the camera locations:
- Only 50 cameras for the entire city (two in each ward). It's a start, but not nearly enough.
- The cameras will be moved around to other locations every 3-6 months, instead of simply expanding the number of cameras.
- They will be installed primarily on local roads and collectors (presumably in school zones). However high-speed arterials remain mostly untouched.
- There is a mandatory 90-day “warning period” where no tickets will be issued.
Below are the maps of the camera locations:
picard102
Senior Member
There were 21 incidents each day last year in NYC.
crs1026
Superstar
^When I look at the list of locations in my part of town, I’m underwhelmed. I can think of several locations that have higher apparent automobile speeds and traffic and pedestrian volumes. One wonders if the list appeases a few people who write their councillor regularly, rather than where enforcement is most needed. One also wonders if low-volume locations were chosen to keep these cameras away from places where motorists might be inconvenienced.
One example is Chartwell Road, which is a sidestreet beside Norseman PS. Definitely a zone needing speed control, but the volume of cars on Norseman Road itself is much higher than on Chartwell. The camera won’t deal with that.
For that matter, just around the corner we have Royal York Road, a heavier used arterial road with multiple schools on it.
The Kingsway north of Angelsey is a school zone that has always had speed problems. Ditto Rathburn Road. Several schools face onto Kipling Ave, a very fast-moving road. Royal York and Elmhurst. Islington in front of Richview Library.
I would have expected these cameras to go to higher volume locations that have more traction with more motorists. Perhaps the strategy is the reverse....get to the point where the city can say “we have had these all along” when they roll out in more locations. The price, however, is that for the immediate future very few motorists will ever encounter a camera, so any deterrent value is very, very small.
- Paul
One example is Chartwell Road, which is a sidestreet beside Norseman PS. Definitely a zone needing speed control, but the volume of cars on Norseman Road itself is much higher than on Chartwell. The camera won’t deal with that.
For that matter, just around the corner we have Royal York Road, a heavier used arterial road with multiple schools on it.
The Kingsway north of Angelsey is a school zone that has always had speed problems. Ditto Rathburn Road. Several schools face onto Kipling Ave, a very fast-moving road. Royal York and Elmhurst. Islington in front of Richview Library.
I would have expected these cameras to go to higher volume locations that have more traction with more motorists. Perhaps the strategy is the reverse....get to the point where the city can say “we have had these all along” when they roll out in more locations. The price, however, is that for the immediate future very few motorists will ever encounter a camera, so any deterrent value is very, very small.
- Paul