[W. K. Lis]

I don't think it matters as much if the left-turn phase comes before or after the through phase. At the end everyone will get their turn.

Not so if transit vehicles could get priority over left-turning single-occupant motor vehicles.

 

[lenaitch]

I’m out of town this week, staying in a place where there are signalized crosswalks on arterial roads waay more intensively in Toronto. Sure seems like a practice we should emulate. Requires enforcement, and that’s a lot tighter here too, but way safer. In Toronto, it can be a long walk to the next marked crossing point.

As to left turns, the current law and road design has built in error probability. Drivers waiting to turn get anxious as heavier traffic leaves fewer gaps for turns, and pedestrians do make erratic or unsafe decisions to enter or to fail to clear the roadway just when drivers most need a clear alley. More left turns should happen under a green arrow (providing signal priority to the motorist) and fewer should happen under yellow-at-end-of-cycle conditions, where it’s a race for cars and pedestrians alike to clear the intersection. Signalise such that either pedestrians have the right of way, or the motorist has the right of way, but don’t let the two comingle especially under conditions that induce haste.

Speaking of enforcement, the average salary of a police officer here is $59.8K USD. (I asked). We need to recognize how the public sector labour arbitration process (which is how our police salaries get set, in truth) has allowed the cost of a traffic officer to rise beyond affordability.

- Paul

One goal should be to eliminate the conflict between pedestrians and turning traffic. One problem with priority turns, especially left turns, is you need a dedicated turn lane, which a lot of intersections can't accommodate. Simply having a 'green arrow' doesn't help if the first car in line isn't turning.

While admittedly Canadian police salaries are higher, US police salaries are all over the map. $59.8K USD is about $78K CAD. Generally, county sheriffs and state police are marginally higher than municipal, but the 'average in some states is in the $30Ks USD but some in California are over $100K USD. In my experience, it often results in a 'you get what you pay for' quality of department. It seems that every podunk in the US has a stand-alone police department, inside a county sherriff, inside a state police. I'm not sure if the general absence of amalgamation is a result of a lack of will or an issue with legislation (state vs. federal law does draw a line, and some state patrols are quite limited in their jurisdiction). There are a few; Dade County and Las Vegas come to mind, and CHP does police some municipalities under contract, but certainly not to the extent we have up here.

 

[crs1026]

One goal should be to eliminate the conflict between pedestrians and turning traffic. One problem with priority turns, especially left turns, is you need a dedicated turn lane, which a lot of intersections can't accommodate. Simply having a 'green arrow' doesn't help if the first car in line isn't turning.

This problem will grow as we convert four-lane roads to two-auto/two—bike roads. I’m a fan for turn lanes, because it preserves flow for straight-thru traffic. But they need to be properly designed, marked, and. signalled.

While admittedly Canadian police salaries are higher, US police salaries are all over the map. $59.8K USD is about $78K CAD. Generally, county sheriffs and state police are marginally higher than municipal, but the 'average in some states is in the $30Ks USD but some in California are over $100K USD. In my experience, it often results in a 'you get what you pay for' quality of department. It seems that every podunk in the US has a stand-alone police department, inside a county sherriff, inside a state police. I'm not sure if the general absence of amalgamation is a result of a lack of will or an issue with legislation (state vs. federal law does draw a line, and some state patrols are quite limited in their jurisdiction). There are a few; Dade County and Las Vegas come to mind, and CHP does police some municipalities under contract, but certainly not to the extent we have up here.

One of my friends down here is a part-time cop in a very small town where there are only to full time officers and several part timers.. The pay is not much more than minimum wage. The variability in the quality of training etc is conspicuous.

I’m not necessarily arguing that our cops are overpaid, or that they should be downgraded in quality to save money, I’m just pointing out that by paying at the highest price point we are pricing ourselves into low staffing levels, where police shed all sorts of “non-critical” tasks to meet their budget.

Whatever happened to Mayor Tory’s traffic warden idea, anyways? I can buy into an enforcement officer role that doesn’t handle the full scope of what police officers are sent out to perform, but has sufficient skill and knowledge to do traffic enforcement. Frankly, I find the American “Officer Buford” approach is not a bad deterrent - people do drive a bit more responsibly because getting pulled over can be a real unpleasant experience.

Ontario's enforcement regime is very complacent IMHO - it starts with police not bothering to enforce below about 20 km/h over the limit, and then writing down tickets into a lower offense that doesn’t cost demerit points, and then allowing pretrial settlement that undercuts further, and then justices doing the same. We Canadians really hate to be subjected to officialdom that may feel nitpicky or anal. When it comes to driving, part of raising the safety bar ought to be restoring some of those picky behaviours. I would change the demerit grid so that every conviction costs one or more points.

- Paul

 

[11th]

Not so if transit vehicles could get priority over left-turning single-occupant motor vehicles.

But wouldn't that be a matter of A-B-A-B, vs. B-A-B-A? They could very well put in an extended phase for transit vehicles before the cross road gets the green (of course this will only work with fully protected left turns to avoid the yellow trap).

 

[11th]

This problem will grow as we convert four-lane roads to two-auto/two—bike roads. I’m a fan for turn lanes, because it preserves flow for straight-thru traffic. But they need to be properly designed, marked, and. signalled.

They do this in some jurisdictions.

Of course curb turns are banned for this to function. I imagine they can also squeeze in a scramble phase somewhere.

 

[MisterF]

This problem will grow as we convert four-lane roads to two-auto/two—bike roads. I’m a fan for turn lanes, because it preserves flow for straight-thru traffic. But they need to be properly designed, marked, and. signalled.

I don't see why the problem would grow. A typical urban 4 lane street in Toronto has no turning lanes at most intersections, right or left. So cars are constantly weaving between lanes to get around parked cars and cars waiting to turn left. Streets that have had a road diet typically have left turn lanes at intersections, which reduces weaving and creates more predictable traffic flow. Converting 4 lane roads as you describe makes the safety situation better, not worse.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Midblock crossing....

I see crazy examples of this every day. People, almost always wearing dark colours, playing frogger across multiple lanes.

 

[crs1026]

I don't see why the problem would grow. A typical urban 4 lane street in Toronto has no turning lanes at most intersections, right or left. So cars are constantly weaving between lanes to get around parked cars and cars waiting to turn left. Streets that have had a road diet typically have left turn lanes at intersections, which reduces weaving and creates more predictable traffic flow. Converting 4 lane roads as you describe makes the safety situation better, not worse.

Ah, the weave. Driver doesn’t bother to signal a left turn until they reach the intersection, then they stop, and everybody behind wants to swerve around them. The driver a few cars back has the best view of things, so they change lanes first and jump the queue in the right lane, but everybody ahead of them asserts body position.

I would love to see stats on how many accidents it creates. Or not?

It certainly seems like something that should be banned, or controlled, as is the case with crosswalks. Entering an intersection at speed when the car beside you has stopped is not a good practice, as visibility may be impaired and the car may be stopped for some reason other than waiting their turn. It’s inherently contrary to defensive driving principles. The value of the left turn lane is to keep the thru cars going in a straight line. At Some intersections, especially where the curb lanes have on street parking short of the intersection, the curb lane is the thru lane, and the jog is explicitly the through path.

- Paul

 

[Admiral Beez]

Ah, the weave. Driver doesn’t bother to signal a left turn until they reach the intersection, then they stop, and everybody behind wants to swerve around them. The driver a few cars back has the best view of things, so they change lanes first and jump the queue in the right lane, but everybody ahead of them asserts body position.

Left turns shouldn't be allowed unless there is a dedicated left turn lane.

 

[W. K. Lis]

140,000 fewer speeding charges. How Toronto police traffic tickets fell by two-thirds, even as deaths spiked

From link.

Speeding. Blowing through a stop sign. Passing a streetcar while its doors are open.

A Toronto driver is far less likely to get a ticket for any of these risky moves now than they were a decade ago, according to exclusive new data obtained by the Star...

 

[tiffer24]

 

[W. K. Lis]

View attachment 219628

Note the drop started between January 2012 and January 2014. During the reign of Rob Ford (2010-2014) and his cost cutting of everything. Also may have been because of Rob's personal experience with the streetcar doors.

Rob Ford accused of driving by open streetcar doors

See link.

Mayor Rob Ford allegedly drove past the open doors of a streetcar on Wednesday afternoon, causing an exchange of words with the streetcar operator, says the head of the transit union.

Bob Kinnear, president of the Amalgamated Transit Union, told reporters the details of the incident on Friday morning.

Kinnear said the incident occurred on Wednesday around 1:30 p.m. He said the mayor drove past the open doors of a streetcar on Dundas Street West near McCaul Street.

Hasn't been corrected to date. City Council should reverse that sooner than later.

 

[Admiral Beez]

140,000 fewer speeding charges. How Toronto police traffic tickets fell by two-thirds, even as deaths spiked

From link.

I drive every weekday from Cabbagetown, to Jarvis, up Mount Pleasant to St. Clair, up Bathurst, onto Eglinton, up the Allen Exwy to Dufferin and Supertest. Then repeat the same on the way home.

I never see a police officer outside of their car or off their bicycle unless it’s paid duty for a condo developer or road work. I never see speed traps, even though the average speed on 50 kph Mount Pleasant must be approaching 80 kph. On St. Clair and Eglinton it’s chaos of pedestrians playing frogger, cars speeding, running stop signs and not stopping before turning right on red lights, and damn Uber cars illegally standing, blocking entire lanes. Where are our $100k a year cops? We must have the most expensive municipal police force per resident in North America. Where are they? Judging by the gun violence, they’re not arresting gold toothed gangstas, that’s for sure.

 

[gabe]

Where are our $100k a year cops? They are acting as human pylons at construction sites. I saw at least five officers sitting in nice warm police cars with flashing lights at various construction sites today, on my commute to the airport area.

 

[lenaitch]

The human pylons at construction sites, movie shoots, etc. are largely 'paid duty'; meaning paid for by the requestor. Admittedly, those costs are passed on, but they shouldn't be confused with on-duty members.
I'm admittedly out of the loop now, but I was quite surprised with the drastic statistical drop in traffic law enforcement. 'Back in the day', Toronto Police had five large district traffic units dedicated to traffic enforcement, supplemented by some enforcement by divisional uniform members. There were even dedicated patrols for the Gardiner and DVP. Traffic unit members were notorious for how many tickets they would write, with the requisite complaints of 'fishing holes'. How times have apparently changed.