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crs1026 said:
Absolutely true, and it taints this whole discussion. I support better safety for pedestrians and cyclists, but if you suggest it's a two-way proposition, you get attacked because you don't side with "them" to their desired extreme.

Drivers too, of course. A good compromise pleases no one, I guess.
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In this discussion, it seems to me like advocates for pedestrians and cyclists are much less flexible and open to criticism than drivers are though. Any forum or subreddit where pedestrian/car accidents are discussed, you'll find a significant number of people who will jump all over your ass if you dare suggest that it would be prudent for pedestrians/cyclists to take as many precautions as they can to protect themselves and often call that 'victim blaming'.

On the otherhand I don't see nearly as many people who are defensive when people constantly criticise drivers and how they need to pay more attention etc.

In the main this is true, but it is a bit iffy if you are trying to cross a 4-lane arterial where there is no crosswalk or signalling. It sounds like this is where some fatalities are happening. The pedestrian has to guess when there will be a gap in each direction, and it's easy to miscalculate when you are processing several approaching cars at once. It only takes one miscalculation to be at risk. Cars do pop out from behind larger vehicles and when they do they are likely to be accelerating. Or, cars haven't spotted the pedestrian and are changing lanes towards them. One sees pedestrians start across, then realise things aren't as they first thought. They may freeze, or they may dart where they were moving at a different pace before. The drivers in turn may change speeds or lanes. It's an inherently error-prone situation, for everybody. There's just no excuse for not having more signalled pedestrian crossings so this is minimised - but there may always be some such potential risk.
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In general I still think pedestrians if they're paying attention should be mostly fine even cross a major street midroad. Usually when you have several lanes of traffic going both ways, its a pretty straight roadway so you can see far in both directions. If a pedestrian isn't sure if they can cross safely for one reason or another then don't do it to begin with and gamble with your life or else wait for a very large distance between you and the vehicles and make sure you can at least cross to the middle of the road safely. Keep looking both ways and when the way is clear then cross the rest of the way.

If people could do even that much I think the amount of pedestrian/vehicle accidents would drop dramatically. Always pay attention and cross when you're absolutely sure you can safely do so. Done and done. If you're a senior or have some impairment that might hinder you from being able to judge traffic accurately or crossing quickly enough, then don't even try it or again just wait until you have a very large distance between you and vehicles before crossing.

Motorists have the same dilemmas, actually. It's often hard to enter a busy fast-moving street from a sidestreet, for the same reason. Try making a left turn at a light when there is a large vehicle trying to turn left in the opposing direction. Your view of the oncoming traffic may be zero because the vehicle blocks your sight line. The prudent thing to do is just wait, even if the way looks clear, but inevitably somebody behind you starts honking. If you do turn, you can count on a vehicle appearing in the opposite direction that you had no way of seeing.
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In general while it can be abit hair raising at times and annoying, its not super difficult to do if you again just pay attention. Usually when there's a left turning vehicle that's blocking my view of oncoming traffic, I just wait for cars to pass and when it seems like there's no more coming then I lean as far left in my seat as I can while crawling my car forward to the left. When I can finally see all oncoming lanes of traffic without obstruction and I can see that the way is clear or at least oncoming vehicles are far enough away, that's when I commit to the turn and finish it.
 
Max Sterling said:
On the otherhand I don't see nearly as many people who are defensive when people constantly criticise drivers and how they need to pay more attention etc.
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Well, now I will sound like I'm flipflopping (I'm not, I'm trying to show that this is indeed a 2-way street and both sides have equally valid arguments)

Actually, when you criticise motorists, the "just stay out of my way and let me drive" argument is immediately raised. Right now the transit fare enforcement debate is pointing out that traffic fines are ridiculously low and seldom are tickets actually handed out. They are totally correct (I'm not arguing for fare evasion, I'm arguing for raising traffic fines and intensifying enforcement to a proper level to create a fairer balance with fare evasion enforcement, which I consider reasonable). The whining about photo radar and red light cameras is also knee-jerk in some camps.

It gets back to, we have to lay out the key accountabilities for each mode, and nobody gets a break over meeting those requirements.

If you're a senior or have some impairment that might hinder you from being able to judge traffic accurately or crossing quickly enough, then don't even try it or again just wait until you have a very large distance between you and vehicles before crossing.
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While I can't argue against your point of "don't do it if you aren't sure it's safe", one has to recognize how much this approach reduces the quality of life for the less able. I know of a seniors' residence on Hurontario where the nearest signalled crosswalk is beyond a senior's walking range, but the important stores and medical offices are directly across the street. I have witnessed seniors using walkers trying to cross that street mid-block at rush hour. It's terrifying to watch. We need far more closely spaced and signalled crosswalks on major arterials, and much more effort to design in pedestrian pathways wherever those may be needed. Right now, roads are designed for cars first, and the impacts on pedestrians and cyclists are an afterthought.

- Paul
 
The other day I noticed that York Region has now banned right-hand turns on red at Bathurst St. and Clark Ave. I’m wondering if this is a trial study and if this has been put in place at other locations. My rough guess is that this is a trial to see if it deals with the extra long right-hand turning lanes that allow drivers to gun it.

One can only wish that it catches on.
 
yrt+viva=1system said:
The other day I noticed that York Region has now banned right-hand turns on red at Bathurst St. and Clark Ave. I’m wondering if this is a trial study and if this has been put in place at other locations. My rough guess is that this is a trial to see if it deals with the extra long right-hand turning lanes that allow drivers to gun it.

One can only wish that it catches on.
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Not allowing right turn on right is one thing; another issue is rushing a right turn to beat the pedestrians on a green. I have lost count of the number of times I have dealt with drivers like that.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Not allowing right turn on right is one thing; another issue is rushing a right turn to beat the pedestrians on a green. I have lost count of the number of times I have dealt with drivers like that.

AoD
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Never understood why they feel they need to beat the pedestrian on a green. Almost to the point of mowing them down.

Another thing I have noticed as well on the VIVA corridors is that the pedestrian signals are now timed to go right after the left turn signals and before the green.
 
yrt+viva=1system said:
Never understood why they feel they need to beat the pedestrian on a green. Almost to the point of mowing them down.

Another thing I have noticed as well on the VIVA corridors is that the pedestrian signals are now timed to go right after the left turn signals and before the green.
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a) Because if there are enough pedestrians it could mean waiting till the end of the green cycle to turn; b) it can get away with beating the pedestrians to crossing by speeding away and c) belief that might = right.

AoD
 
^What makes this particularly lethal is - the pedestrian waiting for the green is watching the signal, not over their shoulder for the car trying to turn right. They may see the green and move (actually, some do jump the gun if they see cross traffic is clearly stopping) without looking back. It's safer to look, but many people see the WALK and just do so.

A related version is - car arriving on a stale yellow, barely stopping, and trying to turn right in the pause before the opposing direction gets a green and can begin moving. In this scenario, both pedestrians trying to clear on the yellow and those about to move crosswise on their green become at risk, because the driver is trying to get a jump on the opposing traffic.

- Paul
 
Max Sterling said:
In general while it can be abit hair raising at times and annoying, its not super difficult to do if you again just pay attention. Usually when there's a left turning vehicle that's blocking my view of oncoming traffic, I just wait for cars to pass and when it seems like there's no more coming then I lean as far left in my seat as I can while crawling my car forward to the left. When I can finally see all oncoming lanes of traffic without obstruction and I can see that the way is clear or at least oncoming vehicles are far enough away, that's when I commit to the turn and finish it.
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Or do a parallel positioning turn (I can't remember if it's called an 'S' or 'Z' turn) when you position you vehicle parallel to traffic as close to the line of obstructed visibility as possible. It's not always possible due to lack of room and you pretty much have to decide to do it when you move forward from the stop line. The problem with sticking you nose out in a partial turn is your eyes are several feet back from the front of the vehicle.
 
Honestly I'm still puzzled as to why intersection redesigns, even temporary ones, haven't been trialed yet.

All I hear is about programs, speed limits, and changing minor things like pavement markings and corner radii- the physical design of the roads and intersections seems to have avoided notice.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1227352045914484737


"Enforcing speed means much more than just posting a speed limit, the road design has to make the target self-enforcing."
 
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PinkLucy said:
They don't need to trial them. The Dutch figured it out ages ago.
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Yeah, but in a North American Toronto context, where drivers will freak at something as simple as a roundabout.

Why not try putting up some planters and sand containers for a trial test run at the worst intersections, like what they did for the King Street Pilot?
 
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