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Good luck with that. The 407's not going to ever even the chance to be free for about what? Another 65 years? It's a cash cow for the consortium that currently "owns" it.

That's true - the Consortium has to get its cut, a deal is a deal.

However, I would not rule out a government subsidy for the truckers (obviously, not for passenger cars) to partly offset the tolls, if that can improve the traffic flow.

Not saying this has to be done, but something worth calculating, as it might turn out to be cheaper than building more highway capacity.
 
That's true - the Consortium has to get its cut, a deal is a deal.

However, I would not rule out a government subsidy for the truckers (obviously, not for passenger cars) to partly offset the tolls, if that can improve the traffic flow.

Not saying this has to be done, but something worth calculating, as it might turn out to be cheaper than building more highway capacity.
If we're going to spend hundreds of millions ($200m+ last estimate I saw) subsidizing truckers to clear up roads, you're likely to get better results and spend less money making the entirety of the GO network ($110m revenue in 2023) completely free.

At least trucks are a relatively efficient use of space on the highway. SOVs aren't.
 
spend less money making the entirety of the GO network ($110m revenue in 2023)
I don't know where you got that number from but that it's wrong. That looks more like the revenue during covid and even then it's low. In the 2021-22 business year revenue was 226.5 milion with only 120.5 from fares - but that was with riddership down to as low as 9% of pre-covid levels; https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...0QFnoECCMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3r6NvBcSso-UtrERUS3-ns

During the 2019-20 business year total revenue was 706.5 million;
 
I don't know where you got that number from but that it's wrong. That looks more like the revenue during covid and even then it's low. In the 2021-22 business year revenue was 226.5 milion with only 120.5 from fares - but that was with riddership down to as low as 9% of pre-covid levels; https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...0QFnoECCMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3r6NvBcSso-UtrERUS3-ns
I will admit to mistaking the 2022 fare revenue numbers for 2023 ($300m+)

But the argument still stands. Getting more cars off the road will cause the highway system to run much smoother. With increased ridership also comes non-fare income (advertising, etc.) and fixed costs on the GO line are ultimately the majority of what matters. You're measuring income lost that wouldn't have come without the making the system free anyway.

Moving trucks to the 407 is an argument purely to appease drivers on the 401. It does little for the other highways and is basically just a shell game that may induce more total drivers onto the 401.
 
But the argument still stands. Getting more cars off the road will cause the highway system to run much smoother.
If the demand is induced and there is latent demand not being satisfied because they highways are congested, I doubt getting people to take transit will make much difference in highway congestion at peak. You would probably need to pay people who drive not to, or, you know, implement road tolls.
 
If the demand is induced and there is latent demand not being satisfied because they highways are congested, I doubt getting people to take transit will make much difference in highway congestion at peak. You would probably need to pay people who drive not to, or, you know, implement road tolls.
Road Tolls should be first. But outside of re-electing the NDP at the provincial level, I don't think Toronto will ever be treated as "grown up" enough to do so within its own borders; and the GTA will outright revolt if there's anything on the greater network.
 
Does GO have the capacity to carry all riders that would board if it was a free service? Or, would that require building some rather costly infrastructure?
 
Does GO have the capacity to carry all riders that would board if it was a free service? Or, would that require building some rather costly infrastructure?
Does any big system?

You'd have to knock down fares slowly, to make sure you can handle it. There's been a big effective fare drop recently for those that live in Toronto, as now the GO ride is often only a few cents more than the TTC trip they were already taking.
 
Does GO have the capacity to carry all riders that would board if it was a free service? Or, would that require building some rather costly infrastructure?
Honestly at rush hour it's full even though it's paid. Also even for short trips standing on the go feels a lot worse than on the subway.

The service is busy enough to run 15 mins on weekends, and even if it made financial sense to make it free they can barely crew the current rush hour frequency.
Road Tolls should be first. But outside of re-electing the NDP at the provincial level, I don't think Toronto will ever be treated as "grown up" enough to do so within its own borders; and the GTA will outright revolt if there's anything on the greater network.
My opinion is that before uploading the highways there was at least a case Toronto property taxes pay for the vast majority of the highway so there was a political leg to stand on. Now with the province taking them over it's dead x2. Even the pro transit, ontario liberals shot down tolls in that enviroment.
 
Does GO have the capacity to carry all riders that would board if it was a free service? Or, would that require building some rather costly infrastructure?
The GO network as is, is absolutely incapable of providing meaningful relief to the 400-series highway network, particularly during rush hour when congestion is at its worst. While the 401 is indeed busy most of the time these days, it still moves reasonably well outside of peak hours, aside from some localized slowdowns. However, during rush hour the highway slows to a brutal crawl.

This is a point that some seem to overlook; The GO network faces numerous capacity issues during peak hours, it is lacking the necessary crew, equipment, and infrastructure base—particularly along the critical east-west Lakeshore line. A major bottleneck is the section just east of Union Station, which will remain restricted to two tracks for the next several years due to ongoing Ontario Line construction. Furthermore, 2025 will likely be a transitional year due to the new vendor taking over. A return to even pre-COVID crewing levels probably won’t occur until 2026. While OOI claims they can extract more from the current crew and equipment, the projected incresse is only incremental and far from transformative. Infrastructure upgrades are ongoing and have been for years but true capacity expansion won’t happen until electrification, which was initially targeted for 2031. Given that only the Whitby Yard and the Pearson spur to the airport have any electrification infrastructure built in, full electrification is likely at least a decade away, with 2040 being a more realistic estimate when you consider the historical tendency of major delays(see Crosstown LRT).

Some argue that we should do nothing, and yes making the GO network free is akin to doing nothing for peak period relief but that stance ignores the available peak period capacity within the highway network— spcifically on the 407. Imo, it makes litterally no sense to not take advantage of that spare capacity.
 
The GO network as is, is absolutely incapable of providing meaningful relief to the 400-series highway network, particularly during rush hour when congestion is at its worst. While the 401 is indeed busy most of the time these days, it still moves reasonably well outside of peak hours, aside from some localized slowdowns. However, during rush hour the highway slows to a brutal crawl.

This is a point that some seem to overlook; The GO network faces numerous capacity issues during peak hours, it is lacking the necessary crew, equipment, and infrastructure base—particularly along the critical east-west Lakeshore line. A major bottleneck is the section just east of Union Station, which will remain restricted to two tracks for the next several years due to ongoing Ontario Line construction. Furthermore, 2025 will likely be a transitional year due to the new vendor taking over. A return to even pre-COVID crewing levels probably won’t occur until 2026. While OOI claims they can extract more from the current crew and equipment, the projected incresse is only incremental and far from transformative. Infrastructure upgrades are ongoing and have been for years but true capacity expansion won’t happen until electrification, which was initially targeted for 2031. Given that only the Whitby Yard and the Pearson spur to the airport have any electrification infrastructure built in, full electrification is likely at least a decade away, with 2040 being a more realistic estimate when you consider the historical tendency of major delays(see Crosstown LRT).

Some argue that we should do nothing, and yes making the GO network free is akin to doing nothing for peak period relief but that stance ignores the available peak period capacity within the highway network— spcifically on the 407. Imo, it makes litterally no sense to not take advantage of that spare capacity.
If only we had some kind of inter-provincial rail service that would run similar to VIA, but without the full service. VIA rail with GO level service.

- Build the 407 freight bypass, remove freight trains entirely off the line
- lay down track on the Kitchener line and beyond to Windsor to allow 200km/h speeds.
- operate out of existing VIA rail station in southern Ontario all the way to Windsor.
- phase 2, extend this 200km/h line along Lakeshore East to Oshawa.

Effectively you have a line that runs parallel with the 401 from Winsdor to Oshawa. It would essentially be Ontario's own version of the NE corridor. Could this help take cars off the 401? If you're going beyond Oshawa, probably not.
 
If only we had some kind of inter-provincial rail service that would run similar to VIA, but without the full service. VIA rail with GO level service.

- Build the 407 freight bypass, remove freight trains entirely off the line
- lay down track on the Kitchener line and beyond to Windsor to allow 200km/h speeds.
- operate out of existing VIA rail station in southern Ontario all the way to Windsor.
- phase 2, extend this 200km/h line along Lakeshore East to Oshawa.

Effectively you have a line that runs parallel with the 401 from Winsdor to Oshawa. It would essentially be Ontario's own version of the NE corridor. Could this help take cars off the 401? If you're going beyond Oshawa, probably not.
Why stop at 200km and go for 300km??

Who is paying to have tracks brought up to 200km + as CN/CP will not be doing since they don't need the speed for it as well adding more double and triple track corridors???

407 freight bypass is a dead issue due to cost that will have to be shoulder by the province fully.

There is nothing stopping the province from having its own passenger service as well inter-province other than finding land to build tracks on or paying an arm and leg to CN/CP to build the tracks in their corridor. It done in the states with Amtrak operating it.

Unless these corridors are from Windsor to Kingston/Ottawa, ridership will be poor as well service, let alone other corridors.

How much of these corridors need grade separation??

Who will be around when these trains start running???
 
Why stop at 200km and go for 300km??

Who is paying to have tracks brought up to 200km + as CN/CP will not be doing since they don't need the speed for it as well adding more double and triple track corridors???

407 freight bypass is a dead issue due to cost that will have to be shoulder by the province fully.

There is nothing stopping the province from having its own passenger service as well inter-province other than finding land to build tracks on or paying an arm and leg to CN/CP to build the tracks in their corridor. It done in the states with Amtrak operating it.

Unless these corridors are from Windsor to Kingston/Ottawa, ridership will be poor as well service, let alone other corridors.

How much of these corridors need grade separation??

It was a pipe dream suggestion. I haven't fully fleshed it out. Vote for me as Premier of Ontario. Watch it get done.

EDIT: - This line would have it's own ROW after Kitchener. CP/CN wouldn't be a factor. Hence construct 407 bypass. Fully tax payer funded.
- 200km/h to help keeps costs down. Something like Brightline vs a fully electric HSR.

Who will be around when these trains start running???
What???
I don't know. Depending on when it gets finished, hopefully human beings? Do you disagree?👽👽😵
 
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Some argue that we should do nothing, and yes making the GO network free is akin to doing nothing for peak period relief but that stance ignores the available peak period capacity within the highway network— spcifically on the 407. Imo, it makes litterally no sense to not take advantage of that spare capacity.

There is less spare capacity on 407 during peak hours than you might expect. It is priced to just be on the verge of congestion in the peak hour. I don't think you could add a significant additional volume without it breaking down.
 

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