[darth_freeman]

Moreover it sucks massive gobs of money away from more valuable capital projects.

The resources are better directed elsewhere.

It may good politics, it would be lousy policy.

Population of the GTA is expected to increase by almost 50% by 2041, with the bulk of that in the 905 (mostly in York, Peel, Halton). https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/demographics/projections/#s3d

While expanding GO Train capacity is good for accessing the 25% or so of GTA jobs that are in the downtown core, it is inevitable that Highway expansion will be needed for the rest.

Not to mention, 50% more population growth means 50% increase in people buying stuff. This means many more trucks on the road, which this highway is well suited for.

 

[Northern Light]

Population of the GTA is expected to increase by almost 50% by 2041, with the bulk of that in the 905 (mostly in York, Peel, Halton). https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/demographics/projections/#s3d

While expanding GO Train capacity is good for accessing the 25% or so of GTA jobs that are in the downtown core, it is inevitable that Highway expansion will be needed for the rest.

Not to mention, 50% more population growth means 50% increase in people buying stuff. This means many more trucks on the road, which this highway is well suited for.

I'm unclear why a highway makes sense, but suburb-to-suburb GO rail does not?

I would rather see, in the fullness of time, a GO rail corridor in the 407 ROW and even the 401 ROW, with tunneling where useful to take the trains slightly askew to serve destinations.

I likewise am happy to support a rail connection following the '413' alignment; provided that existing demand supports it.

I don't think growth need inevitably be outward.

I think we could sustain the vast majority of growth within the existing urban footprint and we would be better off doing so.

In which case that's where the greater investment in transportation infrastructure will surely go.

While cars in some form will undoubtedly be with us for decades to come (or longer), I strongly suspect they will all be computer driven in dense urban areas.

That will allow for far greater efficiency in the use of highways in particular and the road grid more broadly, which should reduce demand for additional lane capacity.

I don't see the 413 as the answer to congestion, anymore than the 407 was, or the 401 before it.

They were both proposed as solutions to congestion, and managed to bring more sprawl and traffic without ever addressing the issue they were initially targeted towards.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Highway or some intermediate road connecting from east of the 404 to west of the 400 (even beyond to the planned 427 extension) is needed. There really are precious few e-w routes across york region once you get north of major mackenzie/16th. Choosing a few concession roads at 4 - 8 km intervals and building a continuous uninterrupted roadway would relieve much of the demand.

 

[innsertnamehere]

the highway is also expected to be largely self funded like the 407 extension into Durham was. It was mentioned that it will likely be constructed as a toll highway facility, with the tolls financing the capital costs.


The environmental sensitivity of the Oak Ridges means a major road connection between the 400 and 404 in that area is unlikely.

 

[darth_freeman]

I'm unclear why a highway makes sense, but suburb-to-suburb GO rail does not?

I would rather see, in the fullness of time, a GO rail corridor in the 407 ROW and even the 401 ROW, with tunneling where useful to take the trains slightly askew to serve destinations.

I likewise am happy to support a rail connection following the '413' alignment; provided that existing demand supports it.

Good idea, but unfortunately, wouldn't building new heavy rail connecting the "downtown" of the outlying suburbs be impossible? Can new heavy rail be built at all? We've seen expansion of existing lines but it doesn't seem possible to add new lines to already developed areas.

407 ROW doesn't need heavy rail, there is already a BRT planned for it with capability to become LRT.

Heavy rail along the 413 would be pointless as there would be nothing there. The city centres of the suburbs is already established.

 

[Northern Light]

Good idea, but unfortunately, wouldn't building new heavy rail connecting the "downtown" of the outlying suburbs be impossible? Can new heavy rail be built at all? We've seen expansion of existing lines but it doesn't seem possible to add new lines to already developed areas.

407 ROW doesn't need heavy rail, there is already a BRT planned for it with capability to become LRT.

Heavy rail along the 413 would be pointless as there would be nothing there. The city centres of the suburbs is already established.

The function of heavy rail in the 413 corridor in the near term would be freight movement and reducing truck traffic. The existing alignment would intersect the CP mainline and allow for a connection south-westward which could cut travel times for CP freights going from the US to or S-W Ontario, westward on the mainline.

It could also serve as a short-cut for CN, though there is one developed area between Bathurst-Bayview would either involve some material expense, or require diverting further north. There is open space, maybe 5km to the north where GO's Newmarket/Barrie sub weaves through the urban area.

It would allow for passenger connections as well, by meeting the Newmarket/Barrie sub and allowing a direct Barrie to Brampton/Mississauga connection.

In terms of an alignment along the 401, for what will likely be electrified passenger service, a short tunnel segment taking up you up to meet Sheppard-Yonge station is very do-able; as would a southerly diversion at Scarbrough Town Centre; and at Yorkdale , meeting the subway at those respective locations. It could finish at Pickering GO, allowing a much more direct route from Durham Region, by transit, to both NYCC and Pearson.

I would not prioritize these as the next, or even subsequent round of investments.

However, I do think they worth considering in the longer term, and preferable to additional highway capacity.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Fantasy Incoming:

 

[gweed123]

I can see the 427-400 section of this corridor being built as an extension of the 427, but that's about it. Personally, I think that stretch makes sense, as it would give southbound traffic the option of bypassing the 400-401 interchange congestion.

 

[TOareaFan]

As someone who would have found this highway useful I would understand it's cancellation if the province was going all in on weaning us from the car.

What I see, however, is the cancellation of a highway project in one area while the province is building and/or expanding highways all over the place that serve lower and slower growing populations than the area this highway will serve.

I just don't get it at all.

 

[narduch]

As someone who would have found this highway useful I would understand it's cancellation if the province was going all in on weaning us from the car.

What I see, however, is the cancellation of a highway project in one area while the province is building and/or expanding highways all over the place that serve lower and slower growing populations than the area this highway will serve.

I just don't get it at all.

I think they just don't want to spend the money on it.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think they just don't want to spend the money on it.

then they should just say that.....it would win them votes in other areas if they said "we don't want to spend money here because we need it to spend in 'X' place "

 

[gweed123]

As someone who would have found this highway useful I would understand it's cancellation if the province was going all in on weaning us from the car.

What I see, however, is the cancellation of a highway project in one area while the province is building and/or expanding highways all over the place that serve lower and slower growing populations than the area this highway will serve.

I just don't get it at all.

To be fair, much of the rural construction and twinning (Hwy 400 to Sudbury, Hwy 11 to North Bay, etc) is more about improving safety than providing "needed" capacity. It's fully known that that 2nd carriageway isn't needed for capacity reasons, but rather to eliminate potential head-ons and side swipes at rural intersections.

For that reason, I'm much more supportive of rural highway expansion than I am of urban/suburban expansion. Personally, I think urban/suburban expansion should more or less be limited to installing HOV lanes. In certain cases, widening to eliminate a bottleneck is also acceptable.

 

[TOareaFan]

To be fair, much of the rural construction and twinning (Hwy 400 to Sudbury, Hwy 11 to North Bay, etc) is more about improving safety than providing "needed" capacity. It's fully known that that 2nd carriageway isn't needed for capacity reasons, but rather to eliminate potential head-ons and side swipes at rural intersections.

For that reason, I'm much more supportive of rural highway expansion than I am of urban/suburban expansion. Personally, I think urban/suburban expansion should more or less be limited to installing HOV lanes. In certain cases, widening to eliminate a bottleneck is also acceptable.

Which category, for example, does that whole eastward extension of the 407 fall into?

 

[BurlOak]

Fantasy Incoming:
View attachment 141398

That 2nd ring road seems a long way away.
First, I would extend 427.
Don't know how, but continuing that ring road (413) from 400 to 404 would be nice - but tight on space.
Continuing this through Pickering to 407 is likely easier. Maybe down to 401 a bit tougher.
In the west, connect to Guelph, which is already getting a connection to KW.
Connect Cambridge to Hamilton (aside from hwy 6, which would stay as-is) and Mid Pen from Hamilton to Buffalo.

 

[gweed123]

Which category, for example, does that whole eastward extension of the 407 fall into?

I'm ok with the 412 because it provides a valid bypass route to get TO the 407 (as opposed to using the 404), but overall I think the 407 East isn't needed. Though at least it's tolled so the Province can recoup some of the capital cost of building it.

I'm also in favour of projects like the Morriston Bypass, since there are both capacity and safety concerns through that stretch.