[Northern Light]

It's not. But we already pay for it.

Pre-pandemic, we had a deficit; we are not covering our expenses; ergo, no we do not pay for it.

Making things up, does not make them true.

Before you say it:

A) Gas taxes are not dedicated to highway infrastructure

B) Gas taxes are not sufficient to cover transportation related infrastructure costs even if dedicated to that purpose.

C) Absent pricing in a manner that reduced demand per capita, when we have a growing population; costs of new build are enormous and growing.

D) None of this includes the externalized costs of highways, in terms of health-related costs, the costs of urban sprawl; and lost land value and its economic and tax spinoffs.

 

[afransen]

We could just toll all the freeways in one yearly fee like in certain countries like Austria and the Czech Republic. You have to have a sticker on your windshield that costs 92.50 Euros in Austria per year to use the country's freeways.

They have cameras that scan every vehicle for the stickers in random places. If you don't have the sticker, they mail you a ticket. If you don't want to pay for the sticker, you can still use local roads.

This would do exactly nothing to address congestion. The whole point of tolls is to manage congestion, not to merely raise revenue. Raising revenue is relatively easy. Certainly easier politically than through tolls (as evidenced by their absence).

 

[H4F33Z]

How can we make tolls happen? What would be the steps, and would the politicians even do such a "crazy" task.

 

[afransen]

Could just leverage existing ETR technology from 407. There are already provincially owned highways with tolls administered through ETR.

Ontario Highway 412 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Northern Light]

How can we make tolls happen? What would be the steps, and would the politicians even do such a "crazy" task.

For municipal highways, Toronto Council already endorsed tolls in the previous term; but the province vetoed them.

We could repeat that process; but a different option would simply be to seek the power from the province, probably in a package of powers over items where the province now has to sign off on things, under the City of Toronto Act.

In that case it would simply remove the province from the decision making process in respect of the DVP/Gardiner. '

In respect of 400-series (Provincial) freeways, one would need to convince the government of the day to implement tolls.

@afransen rightly points out above me, that the ETR could simply be contracted build/operate a toll system for a set fee.

In general, I think that's still a tough sell.

But one of the better arguments would be that we could bargain w/the ETR to lower existing 407 tolls in exchange for much more total new revenue w/additional highways. Revenue in which the Province would share.

Its not simply good policy, it would be very popular in York Region.

 

[afransen]

407 could potentially be convinced to lower tolls without inducement. Tolling other parallel highways should increase utilization of the 407 by lowering the price differential.

 

[Northern Light]

407 could potentially be convinced to lower tolls without inducement. Tolling other parallel highways should increase utilization of the 407 by lowering the price differential.

Right, but my point was 'selling' new tolls to a reticent provincial government whose power base to a great degree is in York Region.

Noting that there might something to offer the public, immediately, in exchange for the new tolls was my thinking.

 

[kamira51]

I understand peoples views on this highway proposal,

As a southern Caledon Resident i have to realize that no matter what happens regarding the construction of this highway, SOUTHERN CALEDON WILL BE DEVELOPED
and it'll add more cars to the road.

People on here think that by killing this highway, they saved "prime farmland" and pat them selves on the back, its so asinine that people who don't even live in southern Caledon oppose this highway without understanding what its like to live in this region.

I'm all for public transit but i don't think it would benefit southern Caledon the way it would benefit Toronto for example.

 

[Divas S.]

ah yes we should continue to build the same copy-paste auto-centric suburbs that we known for decades is terrible for our health thanks to air pollution from all the cars we have to drive and the less active lifestyle, isolation from others and more negatives. At least attempt to do something to make less of it happen, maybe if all of southern Caledon was in the greenbelt I would be a bit more in favour of the road or if the GTA was denser and drove cars less than we do currently.

 

[ARG1]

ah yes we should continue to build the same copy-paste auto-centric suburbs that we known for decades is terrible for our health thanks to air pollution from all the cars we have to drive and the less active lifestyle, isolation from others and more negatives. At least attempt to do something to make less of it happen, maybe if all of southern Caledon was in the greenbelt I would be a bit more in favour of the road or if the GTA was denser and drove cars less than we do currently.

Thing is, auto centric suburbs will develop highway or not. Look at Whitchurch-Stouffville where they had a ton of car-oriented copy past suburbs develop over the past 5+ years. What Highway are they built off again? The suburb is located 9km east of Hwy 404, and 11km north of 407. The reality is that suburbs are being developed with or without highways, the only difference highways make is how much strain is going to be put on the major roads, and not building highways isn't going to stop the spread of auto-centric suburbs.

 

[Northern Light]

Thing is, auto centric suburbs will develop highway or not. Look at Whitchurch-Stouffville where they had a ton of car-oriented copy past suburbs develop over the past 5+ years. What Highway are they built off again? The suburb is located 9km east of Hwy 404, and 11km north of 407. The reality is that suburbs are being developed with or without highways, the only difference highways make is how much strain is going to be put on the major roads, and not building highways isn't going to stop the spread of auto-centric suburbs.

There are options to curtail such building.

Expanding the Greenbelt; imposing higher minimum densities, imposing standards for complete streets, banning front yard driveways/garages and requiring rear lanes, requiring mixed use retail and rental.

This can be done, has been done, and is being done.

Sometimes well; sometimes not so much.

But we most certainly can put in measures to end auto-centric new builds.

Its not complicated in the least.

Its worth noting how much less auto-centric SFH we're seeing as a portion of new construction now vs what we were seeing 15 years ago.

Its still far too high; but we have made a material bend in the proverbial curve.

***

Widening highways and extending them will do nothing to relieve roads. We've been there, done that, didn't work.

For the simple reason that if we facilitate more auto-centric living, we will get more of it; which will just drive us (pun intended) to yet another highway and another widening.

We're well past enough is enough; and onto enough is too much.

 

[Steve X]

I do think we need a partial ring road at the edge of the city to relief the highway network which is mainly the 401. Many cities around the world have some sort of bypass, we don't. With lack of a plan, the 407 failed to be that highway.
A good protection plan needs to be put in place to avoid the "Toronto Bypass" becoming the Toronto main throughway.

 

[allengeorge]

People on here think that by killing this highway, they saved "prime farmland" and pat them selves on the back, its so asinine that people who don't even live in southern Caledon oppose this highway without understanding what its like to live in this region.

The reality is that suburbs are being developed with or without highways, the only difference highways make is how much strain is going to be put on the major roads, and not building highways isn't going to stop the spread of auto-centric suburbs.

If you think these roads are going to reduce congestion in the long run you're in for a big surprise. I lived in Brampton when they widened the 410, Airport, Bovaird... The cars just kept filling it up. And every decade: "We should just widen it more!" At this point Airport has more lanes than some interstates and it's still jammed at times. There are times I feel like the dominant form of development in Brampton is "road".

Caledon's plan for its southern border is a poor use of space, prioritizes the least intensive form of housing and couples it with the least-dense form of transport. If (honestly, probably "when") this is built you'll have a bit of respite - and we'll be having exactly this same conversation again as the roads fill up - just like it happened in Brampton.

 

[kamira51]

If you think these roads are going to reduce congestion in the long run you're in for a big surprise. I lived in Brampton when they widened the 410, Airport, Bovaird... The cars just kept filling it up. And every decade: "We should just widen it more!" At this point Airport has more lanes than some interstates and it's still jammed at times. There are times I feel like the dominant form of development in Brampton is "road".

Caledon's plan for its southern border is a poor use of space, prioritizes the least intensive form of housing and couples it with the least-dense form of transport. If (honestly, probably "when") this is built you'll have a bit of respite - and we'll be having exactly this same conversation again as the roads fill up - just like it happened in Brampton.

Then what do you think they should do?

 

[Undead]

I do think we need a partial ring road at the edge of the city to relief the highway network which is mainly the 401. Many cities around the world have some sort of bypass, we don't. With lack of a plan, the 407 failed to be that highway.
A good protection plan needs to be put in place to avoid the "Toronto Bypass" becoming the Toronto main throughway.

Weeeeellll, the 401 was supposed to be the first Toronto bypass, and the 407 was the second...

Then what do you think they should do?

Every subdivision should be built with higher density (skinny, tall town houses inside residential blocks with point towers lining major roads), wide sidewalks, protected bike lanes, limited car parking ratios, local BRT and regional GO bus connections, walkable retail and other amenities, walkable and bikeable streets, a porous and rectangular street grid, traffic calming measures, mixed use residential and employment side by side, etc. Not a panacea, but should help.