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TransitBart said:
I have to say - I am pretty stunned at those rates. A 50km drive - 25 mins one way. There and back. $250 a week. $1000 / month. $12,000 per year. Do people really spend this kind of money on a highway? Or rather - who can spend this kind of money on this?
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Plenty of people do, because the only alternatives are the 401 or surface streets; which is to say, there aren't alternatives for lots of people, as a lot of 25 minute drives would turn into 2 hour drives during rush hour and that's not doable for most 9-to-5 workers.

It's simple math. Every time you raise prices, a few people stop taking the highway. However, the price increase typically brings in more revenue than the lost customers took with them - and traffic volumes get a bit lighter. If, say, they suddenly doubled prices, they would probably lose so many customers that the price increase wouldn't cover it, and they'd need to bring it back down.

There are lots of jobs in which $12K/year for tolls alone would not make sense, because it would be more profitable just to work a minimum wage job somewhere in town. However for someone making 100K it's the cost of doing business if you get a good offer that's across the GTA, and for someone making 200K+ it would barely register. Also, if you're using it to commute or travelling on business (as long as you pay for it or are getting reimbursed, not if your company pays it directly) you can claim it against your taxes, which helps a bit. A lot of 407 drivers barely look at the cost of their statements because it's just a reality of life for them, like gas.

That said, the rates are absolutely egregious, and I curse Mike Harris for them on a regular basis.
 
Megaton327 said:
Plenty of people do, because the only alternatives are the 401 or surface streets; which is to say, there aren't alternatives for lots of people, as a lot of 25 minute drives would turn into 2 hour drives during rush hour and that's not doable for most 9-to-5 workers.

It's simple math. Every time you raise prices, a few people stop taking the highway. However, the price increase typically brings in more revenue than the lost customers took with them - and traffic volumes get a bit lighter. If, say, they suddenly doubled prices, they would probably lose so many customers that the price increase wouldn't cover it, and they'd need to bring it back down.

There are lots of jobs in which $12K/year for tolls alone would not make sense, because it would be more profitable just to work a minimum wage job somewhere in town. However for someone making 100K it's the cost of doing business if you get a good offer that's across the GTA, and for someone making 200K+ it would barely register. Also, if you're using it to commute or travelling on business (as long as you pay for it or are getting reimbursed, not if your company pays it directly) you can claim it against your taxes, which helps a bit. A lot of 407 drivers barely look at the cost of their statements because it's just a reality of life for them, like gas.

That said, the rates are absolutely egregious, and I curse Mike Harris for them on a regular basis.
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But Dalton McGuinty promised to reduce the tolls back in 2003.

(but I agree, it was one of the worst decisions Harris made - along with stopping construction of the Eglinton subway launch shaft).
 
@Megaton327 makes a good point though, if tolls on the 407 were much less, or if it was even a freeway, just how congested would the highway be? Many people (myself included) may baulk at the high tolls, but it's obvious that many others are willing to pay. That highway is by no means devoid of traffic. I see it as basic economic theory at work here.
 
Megaton327 said:
Plenty of people do, because the only alternatives are the 401 or surface streets; which is to say, there aren't alternatives for lots of people, as a lot of 25 minute drives would turn into 2 hour drives during rush hour and that's not doable for most 9-to-5 workers.

It's simple math. Every time you raise prices, a few people stop taking the highway. However, the price increase typically brings in more revenue than the lost customers took with them - and traffic volumes get a bit lighter. If, say, they suddenly doubled prices, they would probably lose so many customers that the price increase wouldn't cover it, and they'd need to bring it back down.

There are lots of jobs in which $12K/year for tolls alone would not make sense, because it would be more profitable just to work a minimum wage job somewhere in town. However for someone making 100K it's the cost of doing business if you get a good offer that's across the GTA, and for someone making 200K+ it would barely register. Also, if you're using it to commute or travelling on business (as long as you pay for it or are getting reimbursed, not if your company pays it directly) you can claim it against your taxes, which helps a bit. A lot of 407 drivers barely look at the cost of their statements because it's just a reality of life for them, like gas.

That said, the rates are absolutely egregious, and I curse Mike Harris for them on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

Thankfully, the $15 per hour minimum wage starting in 2019 will be of some help. Oh, wait!! Never mind. :mad:
 
Megaton327 said:
There are lots of jobs in which $12K/year for tolls alone would not make sense, because it would be more profitable just to work a minimum wage job somewhere in town. However for someone making 100K it's the cost of doing business if you get a good offer that's across the GTA, and for someone making 200K+ it would barely register.
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If you earn a salary of $200k you are likely bringing home about $120k.......so I would suspect paying 10% of that for one aspect of your commute (ie does not include gas and other costs) wiould most definitely “register”.

Megaton327 said:
Also, if you're using it to commute or travelling on business (as long as you pay for it or are getting reimbursed, not if your company pays it directly) you can claim it against your taxes, which helps a bit.
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Couple of things wrong here.....salaried employees cannot claim the cost of commuting by car against their income for tax purposes. Commissioned or business for self people can but if it is reimbursed by a company even they cannot claim it.....you can’t claim any expense that someone reimbursed you for.

Megaton327 said:
That said, the rates are absolutely egregious, and I curse Mike Harris for them on a regular basis.
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Would you curse the NDP if they had not lost power?

They were the ones who named the road the “Express Toll Road” and guaranteed that it would be free of volume related traffic jams. When they were asked how they could make that guarantee they said it was because if use got too high they would just keep raising tolls until the guarantee was met.
 
Another 10% increase in rates, more or less.

The 407 has really been jacking up rates in the last few years, they are up probably 50% from 4 years ago. In 2014 the top rate was something like $0.38/km, now its nearly $0.58. Don't really know why.. I guess as they have built out the highway, they don't have the same amount of room for expansion so they have to jack rates rapidly to keep the highway free-flowing? or they just like charging people an arm and a leg I guess..


People working those high calibre jobs (150k+ annual salary) often have a 407 transponder included as a work benefit. Companies get corporate rates which I believe are slightly lower than the standard rates if they have a certain amount of vehicles, and there is a lot less taxes paid on it if it comes out of a corporate account instead of after income taxes.

Also, I would be surprised if the average commute distance on the 407 is 50km. That's roughly 1/2 the highway.
 
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My son (who doesn't have a particularly high calibre job) has the 407 covered from work. The problem is when he drives someone else's car and doesn't think about it since he never has to pay. Let's just say my daughter was not amused when she got the bill.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Thankfully, the $15 per hour minimum wage starting in 2019 will be of some help. Oh, wait!! Never mind. :mad:
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Just a thought, technically it takes an hour to travel 100km on the 407 (going 100km/h). The cost of doing that trip is roughly 3 times the current minimum wage. Something doesn't add up..
 
My problem with the 407 is that there is no incentive to widen the highway if they notice congestion is becoming a frequent problem. They'll just simply raise the tolls and that will help reduce the congestion without hurting their bottom line.
 
Bojaxs said:
My problem with the 407 is that there is no incentive to widen the highway if they notice congestion is becoming a frequent problem. They'll just simply raise the tolls and that will help reduce the congestion without hurting their bottom line.
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they widen the highway regularly though. The just completed adding a lane from York Durham Line to Brock Road a few months ago, and are now working on widening York Durham Line to Markham Road. They widen a different part of the highway almost every year..
 
innsertnamehere said:
they widen the highway regularly though. The just completed adding a lane from York Durham Line to Brock Road a few months ago, and are now working on widening York Durham Line to Markham Road. They widen a different part of the highway almost every year..
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I don't know the exact legal agreement, but somehow they are obliged to widen when traffic volumes get too high. I believe it is also linked to the 401 traffic volumes (the differential) since the 407 role is supposed to be relieving 401.
 
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