[afransen]

I'm not even sure that the engineering and design standards are sufficiently consistent to be able to train drivers, because no two roundabouts are identical and there are permutations and combinations that are hard to predict. Adding the requirement to signal to that is a brain teaser.

Here's an example - Hespeler Road in Cambridge.

The general rule that I have learned (the hard way) is that one should never enter a 2-lane roundabout in parallel to another vehicle, because there are too many places where the vehicle in the center has the right to cut across the outside lane to reach an exit, without even checking their blind spot.

The painted arrows on approach to this roundabout do give some clues, but at the last minute....and this roundabout isn't even symmetrical, so those instructions are direction-and lane-specific. There may be regulatory signs, but the congitive task for drivers to analyse those plus the painted arrows plus lane markings, at speed or in bad weather, is error-friendly.

- Paul

View attachment 453997

I think we should be more cautious about using 2 lane roundabouts, and try to learn from best practice. Turbo-roundabouts have been used pretty widely in Europe and have some design features that make them safer and less ambiguous. The main downside is snowclearing, as there is a raised ridge between lanes to discourage lane changes within the roundabout.

From: https://www.arcadis.com/en-us/knowl.../2020/bringing-the-turbo-roundabout-to-the-us

 

[SashaLemon]

Does anybody know where I can get data on the accurate number of roundabouts that exist in each province, region, or city in Canada? Would there be some sort of National database somewhere?

Edit: I don't know how accurate this is but I found a website:

Roundabouts Database Home

Edit 2: This is not super accurate, it is missing many examples, but it's a start.

 

[nfitz]

Any driver that commits to a conflicting movement solely on a signal indication is playing a dangerous game. Your second statement proves the point.

Absolutely - but that's true at other typed of intersections, not just roundabout. So are all signals redundant at traffic lights too?

You don't know if they are signalling left to just say they are entering the roundabout.

That doesn't make sense - you turn right onto a roundabout. The only time I saw someone signal left, the tried to drive the (fortunately empty) roundabout the wrong way!

I do sometimes see idiots signalling right to enter the roundabout - and then fail to turn right, but go straight through. I guess some are simply ignorant.

You may also not always see where a car entered to know where they will exit. I definitely would not rely on such a signal to avoid a collision.

I think goes without saying at all times when driving.

 

[lenaitch]

Absolutely - but that's true at other typed of intersections, not just roundabout. So are all signals redundant at traffic lights too?

Not necessarily, but you'd best rely on other clues, such as slowing down, moving into a turn lane, etc. before committing to be in their original path, certainly if you are more vulnerable (m/c, bicycle, pedestrian, etc.). if the signal is wrong and they proceed on their original path, unless you have dash cam footage or good witnesses, you'd have a difficult time proving your case when the point of impact is in their lane.

 

[KevinT]

We've got dozens of roundabouts in Waterloo Region now, and the region's ongoing education campaign (print, TV, and web based) has been fairly comprehensive.

The rules:

Yield to traffic already in the roundabout, and if you're already in it, don't stop for traffic waiting to enter.

As far as signalling goes:
- if you'll use a roundabout to turn right (first exit), enter from the right lane, signalling right at entry (which is also signalling your exit)
- if going straight through (second exit) then enter from either lane, don't signal on entry, but do signal right for your exit
- if going left or u-turning (third and fourth exits) then enter from the left lane, signal left on entry and continue signaling left while in the roundabout, then signal right for your exit

As mentioned earlier, never enter a roundabout directly beside another vehicle. Maintaining a zipper formation protects you if someone erroneously enters from the right lane but then uses it to go left, and from a left turning / or straight through vehicle exiting the roundabout from the inner lane (as they should if that's the lane they entered on).

Do not lane change in the roundabout; always exit from/to the lane you entered from.

Expect that semi and other large trucks will use all lanes. If you follow the 'never enter beside another vehicle' rule then this will not be an issue.

Roundabouts

Roundabouts have been an important part of our roadway landscape in Waterloo Region. These circular intersections improve road safety, manage increased traffic demand, and help improve air quality by eliminating unnecessary stops and idling.

www.regionofwaterloo.ca

 

[crs1026]

As far as signalling goes:
- if you'll use a roundabout to turn right (first exit), enter from the right lane, signalling right at entry (which is also signalling your exit)
- if going straight through (second exit) then enter from either lane, don't signal on entry, but do signal right for your exit
- if going left or u-turning (third and fourth exits) then enter from the left lane, signal left on entry and continue signaling left while in the roundabout, then signal right for your exit

That’s where I was going with my Hespeler Road example. The layout is not consistent with these rules, nor is it consistent with the rule of “never change lanes in a roundabout”. See my green arrow, for instance - is the exit a right signal or no signal? How do I go from Hespeler Rd northbound to Beaverdale without changing lanes in the roundabout ? How do the slip lanes align to the “if in the right lane, always turn right at the first exit“ premise ?


- Paul

 

[reaperexpress]

Does anybody know where I can get data on the accurate number of roundabouts that exist in each province, region, or city in Canada? Would there be some sort of National database somewhere?

Edit: I don't know how accurate this is but I found a website:

Roundabouts Database Home

Edit 2: This is not super accurate, it is missing many examples, but it's a start.

I have been making a note of roundabouts I happen to notice in Ontario on Google Maps, but it's obviously not a comprehensive list.
Here is the .kml Google Earth file.

That database you found does indeed seem pretty spotty. It lists 4 roundabouts in the City of Toronto, whereas my layer includes 8 full size roundabouts and 2 neighbourhood traffic circles (mini-roundabouts).

We've got dozens of roundabouts in Waterloo Region now, and the region's ongoing education campaign (print, TV, and web based) has been fairly comprehensive.

My Google Earth layer currently includes 50 roundabouts in Waterloo Region.

 

[11th]

That’s where I was going with my Hespeler Road example. The layout is not consistent with these rules, nor is it consistent with the rule of “never change lanes in a roundabout”. See my green arrow, for instance - is the exit a right signal or no signal? How do I go from Hespeler Rd northbound to Beaverdale without changing lanes in the roundabout ? How do the slip lanes align to the “if in the right lane, always turn right at the first exit“ premise ?


- Paul

From Hespeler northbound: The right lane goes through the roundabout and onto Hespeler, hence the straight arrow. The lane markings guide you to the Hespeler exit. You cannot/should not use it to get to Beaverdale as that would be a lane change within the roundabout.
The left lane is for straight through (Hespeler)/left turn (Beaverdale). It becomes the right lane after the Hespeler exit. No lane change required.

The slip lanes technically is part of the roundabout setup and takes roles of the "right lanes".

 

[crs1026]

From Hespeler northbound: The right lane goes through the roundabout and onto Hespeler, hence the straight arrow. The lane markings guide you to the Hespeler exit. You cannot/should not use it to get to Beaverdale as that would be a lane change within the roundabout.
The left lane is for straight through (Hespeler)/left turn (Beaverdale). It becomes the right lane after the Hespeler exit. No lane change required.

The slip lanes technically is part of the roundabout setup and takes roles of the "right lanes".

The center lane (ie the through route to continue north on Hespeller) ceasing to be the center route is the puzzle. And, while one isn’t supposed to change lanes, the centre lane splits and necessitates a choice in order to stay in the centre lane (not a frequently used choice, I imagine, but counterintuitive to the “vanilla” two lane roundabout train of thought).

It’s very clever flow-wise, but KISS it isn’t, and if we are trying to train people to follow a basic set of roundabout rules, this doesn’t fit that approach. Roundabouts should not be complicated, even if it traffic flows may suggest logical adaptations.

- Paul

 

[11th]

The center lane (ie the through route to continue north on Hespeller) ceasing to be the center route is the puzzle. And, while one isn’t supposed to change lanes, the centre lane splits and necessitates a choice in order to stay in the centre lane (not a frequently used choice, I imagine, but counterintuitive to the “vanilla” two lane roundabout train of thought).

It’s very clever flow-wise, but KISS it isn’t, and if we are trying to train people to follow a basic set of roundabout rules, this doesn’t fit that approach. Roundabouts should not be complicated, even if it traffic flows may suggest logical adaptations.

- Paul

On closer look, it looks to be a variant of a turbo roundabout, so probably not quite vanilla.
The centre lane (the lane closest to the roundabout centre?) splits, but there is no need to switch over to the new centre lane unless someone is trying to do a 270 degrees turn back to Queen.

 

[marcus_a_j]

I'm not even sure that the engineering and design standards are sufficiently consistent to be able to train drivers, because no two roundabouts are identical and there are permutations and combinations that are hard to predict. Adding the requirement to signal to that is a brain teaser.

Here's an example - Hespeler Road in Cambridge.

The general rule that I have learned (the hard way) is that one should never enter a 2-lane roundabout in parallel to another vehicle, because there are too many places where the vehicle in the center has the right to cut across the outside lane to reach an exit, without even checking their blind spot.

The painted arrows on approach to this roundabout do give some clues, but at the last minute....and this roundabout isn't even symmetrical, so those instructions are direction-and lane-specific. There may be regulatory signs, but the congitive task for drivers to analyse those plus the painted arrows plus lane markings, at speed or in bad weather, is error-friendly.

- Paul

View attachment 453997

Love the sidewalks within the roundabout but not a single sidewalk to/from it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Love the sidewalks within the roundabout but not a single sidewalk to/from it.

That's a truck apron.

 

[PL1]

The worst roundabout in Toronto that I know of? Broadway and Banff Avenues. Yes, there's a 4-way stop there. (From Google Maps)

 

[dullturtle06]

The worst roundabout in Toronto that I know of? Broadway and Banff Avenues. Yes, there's a 4-way stop there. (From Google Maps)
View attachment 454211

Lol only toronto would put stop signs at a roundabout.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Almost nobody stops at stop signs​

See link.