[Mind_the_gap]

^ Still three seconds of unnecessary idling...

Do it properly or don't do it at all...

 

[reaperexpress]

^ Still three seconds of unnecessary idling...

Do it properly or don't do it at all...

The City's standard LPI duration is actually 5 seconds, so it's even worse than that.

"Unnecessary idling" is a red herring that is only really used as an argument by people who want to shoehorn car traffic into places it doesn't belong. In reality the negligible impact of longer idling times for internal-combustion vehicles without stop/start technology is generally offset by reductions in trip attractiveness (fewer trips). I don't recommend using idling as an argument.

What is an issue, however, is the lack of credibility. Showing a red light while there's no actual conflict is a surefire way to normalize signal non-compliance. Which is a huge safety issue since signals only work if people obey them. On top of vehicles heading straight, current LPI implementations make the Flashing Don't Walk countdown meaningless since you can often start crossing after the countdown has ended and still make it all the way across the street before traffic gets a green.

The City's LPI approach is deeply flawed as Jackson has done an excellent job of documenting. There are many ways of minimizing unnecessary impacts of LPI, such as arranging phases such that the LPI occurs during time that the signal needs to be red regardless, using dedicated signal heads to hold back right turns while allowing thru movements, or using leading thru intervals, the latter two of which are done in Ottawa, but are virtually unheard of in Toronto.

 

[reaperexpress]

The Ottawa implementation is way more logical. First a "Straight" arrow appears, then green:

This is in line with Quebec's implementations:

Ottawa did it right. Toronto instead penalizes all through-traffic (be it car, bus, or bike), as if the desire were to slow the city down as much as possible.

I live in Ottawa and although I like the leading thru intervals in theory, they don't seem to work in practice. Drivers just turn during the thru arrow just as they would on a green ball.

However in Québec drivers do seem to recognize the thru arrow, and wait for it to end before turning. Maybe it's just a matter of familiarity and Ontario drivers would learn to wait if LTIs were more common.

At the moment, the best solution available in Ottawa seems to be this one, with both an LPI and an LTI. The LPI increases compliance with the no right turn restriction, while the LTI avoids unnecessary delay to thru traffic:

A more intuitive way of displaying this would be to have a right turn signal head with a red arrow, yellow arrow, flashing yellow arrow and green arrow, as is done in the US. But that's not currently permitted under the HTA (reg. 626) so the above example is the best we can do in Ontario.

An example in Massachussetts using red arrows and flashing yellow arrows:

 

[afransen]

I frequently see people going to turn on a 'no right on red' signal while cycling. I look at them, point at the sign, and they usually just smile, wave, then turn anyway. Unreal.

 

[reaperexpress]

I frequently see people going to turn on a 'no right on red' signal while cycling. I look at them, point at the sign, and they usually just smile, wave, then turn anyway. Unreal.

Which reminds me of another problem: When they put in a bike box, they (correctly) install No Right Turn on Red signs, but they often forget to add "Bicycles Excepted" tabs. So apparently bikes aren't allowed to turn right on red from a bike lane to another bike lane because there might be *checks notes* other bikes in the way ??? Other bikes waiting at the same stop line???

St George & Harbord (a location with lots of bicycle right turns):

After seeing a number of these nonsensical regulations, one's willingness to obey signals and signage is severely eroded.
I encounter even more nonsensical regulations while cycling than while driving.

 

[PL1]

It's almo

I frequently see people going to turn on a 'no right on red' signal while cycling. I look at them, point at the sign, and they usually just smile, wave, then turn anyway. Unreal.

It's almost like enforcement might make a difference

 

[afransen]

Which reminds me of another problem: When they put in a bike box, they (correctly) install No Right Turn on Red signs, but they often forget to add "Bicycles Excepted" tabs. There's no need for bikes to have that restriction - they just have a normal stop line, unlike cars.

Oh, as a cyclist, I would ignore that sign too. I was referring to car drivers (I see how my comment was unclear). The purpose of this no right on red was to prevent conflicts with a double left turn lane turning into the same lanes.

 

[reaperexpress]

Oh, as a cyclist, I would ignore that sign too. I was referring to car drivers (I see how my comment was unclear). The purpose of this no right on red was to prevent conflicts with a double left turn lane turning into the same lanes.

Yeah I ignore it too when cycling, but it's problematic that our roadway designs/operations are training people to disregard traffic laws.

 

[afransen]

Yeah I ignore it too when cycling, but it's problematic that our roadway designs/operations are training people to disregard traffic laws.

Oh, I agree. The worst offenders are "cyclists dismount and walk" at every cross-street on a multi-use path. Patently insane if they think anyone is going to comply with that. The kind of careless ass-covering that trains people to break the law.

 

[Towered]

Oh, I agree. The worst offenders are "cyclists dismount and walk" at every cross-street on a multi-use path. Patently insane if they think anyone is going to comply with that. The kind of careless ass-covering that trains people to break the law.

That one is so dumb - never once have I dismounted at a cross-street or whatever. It's just not going to happen.

 

[PL1]

That one is so dumb - never once have I dismounted at a cross-street or whatever. It's just not going to happen.

It's as likely to be observed as a "drivers: put car in neutral and push car through construction zone"

 

[reaperexpress]

Oh, I agree. The worst offenders are "cyclists dismount and walk" at every cross-street on a multi-use path. Patently insane if they think anyone is going to comply with that. The kind of careless ass-covering that trains people to break the law.

Well the nice thing in that case is that the icon is a green circle meaning "permission" as per the MUTCD signage principles that Canada follows.

So it's logically saying "you are permitted to walk your bike", to which my response is "okay cool, I'm not going to do that".

This is confirmed by the Ontario Traffic Manual itself, namely Book 1A:

"A green annular band shall indicate a permissive message" (emphasis added)

Yet Ontario Traffic Manual Book 12 claims that the bikes dismount sign means:

The DISMOUNT AND WALK sign indicates that cyclists are required to dismount and walk their bicycle in a specific area. See OTM Book 18 (Cycling Facilities) for further information on the sign.
The DISMOUNT AND WALK sign should only be used in exceptional cases, such as where an in-boulevard facility ends, and cyclists would discharge onto a sidewalk, pedestrian zone, signalized crosswalk or an area where regulations prohibit cycling. For more information on guidelines for use of this sign, see OTM Book 18 (Cycling Facilities).

On top of contradicting the fundamental principles of North American traffic sign design, it also contradicts the intent of every other green circle sign in the manual.

For example, this sign means "cycling is permitted", not "you are required to ride a bicycle"

This sign means "trucks permitted", not "you are required to drive a truck"

This sign means "hazardous goods permitted", not "you are required to have hazardous goods"

Per the MUTCD, requirements are to be communicated with a black-and-white sign, not a green circle (with specific exceptions like stop signs, yield signs etc).

 

[artemperederii]

Just wanted to show new beautiful traffic lights that Moscow is currently testing, this is flat LED panel with an interesting feature - an outline that copies a colour of a signal for better attention