ndawgg
Active Member
Thanks so much! This intersection is always a bit of a mess so hopefully this will help!
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- Thread starter reaperexpress
- Start date
Thanks so much! This intersection is always a bit of a mess so hopefully this will help!
Towered
Superstar
New lights installed at Lansdowne and Dundas to service the No Frills...
Northern Light
Superstar
Tell the truth, I'm not a fan of more traffic lights in an area w/them so close together. but the current Premier wouldn't like my preferred solution which would be to cut Yonge to one lane each way with cycle tracks and wider sidewalks, making car movements far more predictable.
I would also narrow Wood Street which is a whopping 14M curb to curb at Yonge, that's wide enough for a 4-lane road........that's just silly. Slash it in 1/2 to 7M.
Finally, I would put in a pedestrian refuge island on Yonge designed to block any through movement by cars from Wood to Grenville and vice versa, and to make both streets right-in, right-out at Yonge.
There, much better, no new lights required.
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Mind_the_gap
Active Member
I'm curious... Since the HTA allows for left/right arrows with a red signal, would it allow for a straight/through arrow on a red as well? This accompanied by a "no right on red" sign would eliminate the necessity for that extra signal on the right in your video, while providing LPI and LTI.
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Is this the only example of a red arrow in use in Canada?
Champlain Bridge, Ottawa (at Lucerne)
This signal is at the end of the bridge, so are these "Federal" signals? Like these are weird "Federal" speed limit signs:
I swear I've seen a red left arrow in Calgary, but accompanied by a red ball.
bearcat
Active Member
yeah I don't understand the purpose of the light on the right...
rather, I understand what it's showing, but I don't understand why the red aspect can't just be on on the traffic light that has the staright green arrow
how's an intersection even allowed to have two different traffic lights showing different things, I've only ever seen them if one of the lights is marked with a sign like "left turn signal" or similar... wouldn't the right signal here need such a sign ("right turn signal") above or underneath it?
what @Mind_the_gap suggested makes total sense to me, and is much less confusing imo
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reaperexpress
Senior Member
The rule about simultaneous is from HTA regulation 626 is:
"(3) No traffic control signal system shall be operated so as to show more than one circular indication simultaneously on the same traffic control signal. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 626, s. 1 (3)"
So yes it does seem legally possible to show a red ball and green thru arrow at the same time. But personally I think that display would be very confusing to most drivers since we're mostly accustomed to the red ball controlling the thru movement. I prefer the display that's used in Ottawa, with a separate head that basically acts like a right turn lane signal. It's aligned with the right turn lane, so I think having a separate signal head is actually a feature, not a bug.
Ontario is the only province that explicitly forbids red arrows. There are numerous red arrows in other provinces, mostly in Québec and Alberta.
Montréal QC has lots of red arrows. For example at Rue Notre Dame & Rue Frontenac
Canmore AB has at least one intersection with red arrows: Bow Valley Trail & Railway Ave / Benchlands Trail
Calgary AB does indeed use red arrows as well. Like you said, they use them in combination with a red ball to indicate "no turn on red". Here's an example at Richmond Road & 17th Ave. I couldn't find a Streetview image with the red arrow but you can see it on the sign.
That intersection is in Gatineau QC, not Ottawa ON. The intersection on the Ontario end of the bridge has red balls instead of red arrows.
The typical interpretation has been that the ON HTA doesn't apply on federal roadways, including all National Capital Commission roadways (including but not limited to interprovincial bridges). This is why the NCC installs federal black speed limit signs instead of Ontario / Québec standard signs.
I personally don't understand why federal ownership would exempt a roadway from the HTA but if that is in fact the case, then red arrows could be installed on any NCC roadway, not just those in Québec. The signals on the Ontario end of the bridge seem to be following the City of Ottawa's standards, which are based around the HTA, which is probably just for consistency with other signals in Ottawa.
bearcat
Active Member
With regard to the Ottawa intersection, I guess it's a matter of opinion but to me having two traffic lights facing me showing different things is more confusing and contradictory than a single light both showing a red and a green straight arrow at the same time, especially given that we already have lights analogous to that in meaning showing for example a red and a right turn green arrow at the same time and they work fine.
I guess at this particular intersection in Ottawa it kind of makes sense since the right lane is a right turn only lane, but if the rightmost lane allowed straight through movement like at most intersection, I think this setup is not ideal.
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reaperexpress
Senior Member
If the right lane were not a right turn lane, then yes that setup wouldn't work. It really depends on there being a right turn lane.
bearcat
Active Member
This traffic lights set up still puzzles me. Do you know if the lowest aspect of the rightmost light ever shows anything? Is it ever on? Is there also sometimes a protected right phase at this intersection?
There are also two nearside I guess lights at the intersection. What do they show when the green straight arrow is on? Just a red light? Or are these for the fire station? Is the stop line so far back to let the fire trucks get out?
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reaperexpress
Senior Member
Yes, the lowest aspect is a right turn arrow that comes on with the perpendicular left turn arrow (during red for the thru signal).This traffic lights set up still puzzles me. Do you know if the lowest aspect of the rightmost light ever shows anything? Is it ever on? Is there also sometimes a protected right phase at this intersection?
There are also two nearside I guess lights at the intersection. What do they show when the green straight arrow is on? Just a red light? Or are these for the fire station? Is the stop line so far back to let the fire trucks get out?
The set of signals at the fire station are pre-signals intended to keep people from stopping in front of the driveway but they aren't timed effectively for that.
I've made a video to show you the current operation. You can also see the right turn green arrow at the main intersection come on at the end.