[TheTigerMaster]

"Well, the problem is that there are no subways to my house in the middle of nowhere, not that I have no understanding of what my lifestyle entails, how it came to be or what it will take to maintain it going forward; that guy says there's a gravy train and we have to stop it!"

I don't appreciate you mocking the gravy train. There was a gravy train. Literally tens of dozens of dollars of gravy! And Rob Ford tried to stop it, but the downtown, union loving, lefties stopped him

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

I think this is a pretty good example of why many suburbanites don't want downtowners making the decisions.

The irony of it is that a significant chunk of suburbanites are downtown expatriates, when they became older and more mature.

And then, when their kids are gone, they're dying to buy condos and towns downtown and enjoy patios, theatre and other urban culture.

 

[Eug]

And then, when their kids are gone, they're dying to buy condos and towns downtown and enjoy patios, theatre and other urban culture.

Yep, that too. In other words, a lot of suburbanites know full well the advantages and disadvantages of downtown and suburbia. They don't need downtown-only elitists to tell them what to think.

 

[typezed]

But do those who know full well the advantages and disadvantages of downtown and suburbia have any presence in Ford Nation?

 

[adma]

The irony of it is that a significant chunk of suburbanites are downtown expatriates, when they became older and more mature.

Well, "older and more mature" as a euphemism for "capable of thinking for themselves". Unfortunately, it's the kind of "capable of thinking for themselves" that's responsible for these kinds of destructive aesthetic abortions more often than not.

Of course, Ford Nationeer diehards are the sort who'd be puzzled by what's the matter there, it's their property, it's their right to "improve" it by any means they find necessary, etc...

 

[Eug]

But do those who know full well the advantages and disadvantages of downtown and suburbia have any presence in Ford Nation?

I guess it depends on what you mean by Ford Nation. Blind followers, or just people who voted for him? Cuz I know some who voted for Ford, even downtown, and they are intelligent and well-educated too.

It's not as if they actually liked Ford, but they disliked the other candidates. Me? I voted for the loser, Smitherman. For the coming election I could see some of the same people pinching their noses and voting for Ford again.

I personally am hoping for other candidates to join the fray, because I can't see myself voting for either Ford or Chow.

Of course, Ford Nationeer diehards are the sort who'd be puzzled by what's the matter there, it's their property, it's their right to "improve" it by any means they find necessary, etc...

Yeah, funny how people actually want control over the properties they own, instead of having every single upgrade they make blocked by the likes of adma. For many, if that means voting for Ford, even if they think Ford is a knob, then so be it.

 

[ThinkRicky]

And then, when their kids are gone, they're dying to buy condos and towns downtown and enjoy patios, theatre and other urban culture.

The fun part is there are fewer and fewer decent jobs for their kids, so they get to stay at home while their parents shit on them repeatedly for not being born in an age where even a university degree is no longer a guarentee of gainful, rewarding employment. Suburbanites are often just comfortable enough to ignore how bad things are getting.

I think this is a pretty good example of why many suburbanites don't want downtowners making the decisions.

The irony of it is that a significant chunk of suburbanites are downtown expatriates, when they became older and more mature.

I grew up in the GTA, and now I live and work here; based on what I have observed, maturity is not a common trait among the people who live in these suburbs. As I've said, for the most part they have no idea how or why they live like they do or how they are able to keep living like they do, and have no inclination to educate themselves because they seem to think they already have all the relevant information (hint: they do not because they aren't taught anything of any real value as children and the media does little to educate them) GTA suburbanites often display a callous disregard and lack of understanding or empathy for anyone that is not exactly like them, because they have been encouraged to believe by the prevailing culture that they are just that inherently awesome and anyone that tells them otherwise is just trying to bring them down because of nebulous, poorly explained reasons.

I do not enjoy living surrounded by this amount of raw, unfocused and nonsensical beligerance and if I were not caring for family in the area, I would leave for Quebec or Mars or someplace not populated by such a sea of unrepentant imbeciles.

 

[Eug]

I grew up in the GTA, and now I live and work here; based on what I have observed, maturity is not a common trait among the people who live in these suburbs. As I've said, for the most part they have no idea how or why they live like they do or how they are able to keep living like they do, and have no inclination to educate themselves because they seem to think they already have all the relevant information (hint: they do not because they aren't taught anything of any real value as children and the media does little to educate them) GTA suburbanites often display a callous disregard and lack of understanding or empathy for anyone that is not exactly like them, because they have been encouraged to believe by the prevailing culture that they are just that inherently awesome and anyone that tells them otherwise is just trying to bring them down because of nebulous, poorly explained reasons.

I do not enjoy living surrounded by this amount of raw, unfocused and nonsensical beligerance and if I were not caring for family in the area, I would leave for Quebec or Mars or someplace not populated by such a sea of unrepentant imbeciles.

Example number 2 of why many suburbanites don't want smug elitest downtowners making the decisions. Quoted for posterity.

P.S. For the record, I have lived in downtown Toronto, in the so called Toronto "inner burbs", and in downtown Montreal, as well as in several other cities in western Canada. In my experience, I'll say that your attitude doesn't actually represent the majority of downtowners, fortunately.

 

[jje1000]

I think this is a pretty good example of why many suburbanites don't want downtowners making the decisions.

The irony of it is that a significant chunk of suburbanites are downtown expatriates, when they became older and more mature.

That's their opinion, whether it be right or wrong. The fact is that suburbs are typically more conservative than downtown cores, part of it's due to the older demographics, part of it's due to the bubble created by a lack of interaction with random strangers, and part of it's driven by the fact that the only source of information is mainstream media.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That's their opinion, whether it be right or wrong. The fact is that suburbs are typically more conservative than downtown cores, part of it's due to the older demographics, part of it's due to the bubble created by a lack of interaction with random strangers, and part of it's driven by the fact that the only source of information is mainstream media.

They're typically more conservative, but that does not mean they're all idiots. Not all of them voted for Ford. And even of the ones who did, do you really expect them to go out and research about the candidates before voting? No. They trust what the media and politician tells them, which is what any reasonable person would do. Not everyone passionately follows Toronto politics like most on UT. Don't be so judgemental.

 

[CowboyLogic]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then.

The kind of statement Ford made only serves to marginalize specific segments of the population and simply recalls that period in the 1980's when it was acceptable to stigmatize those afflicated with the disease simply because the epidemic was initially concentrated in the gay community. It has no basis in public health policy. Ford later apologized for this particular statement, so even he realized it was inappropriate. As I stated, if Ford had referenced blacks and not gays in his statement - an equally "valid" comment by your standards, given the CDC stats I posted earlier - no one would ever defend it as "reasonable", and rightfully so.

If it was true, I would defend it. I mean, if somebody said "Chances are if you're not black, you won't get HIV" and the stats backed it up, I wouldn't have a problem with that. It would be true.

FYI, the AIDS Prevention Community Investment Program (which Ford was suggesting should not be funded) targets those segments of the community where the disease is more highly prevalent - it does not conduct a broad awareness campaign. The Program targets gay and bisexual men, injection drug users, women and men from countries where HIV is endemic, people living with HIV/AIDS, gay youth, trans populations, at-risk youth, sex workers and incarcerated men and women. Their outreach is focused at organizations like the 519 Church Street Community Centre, Action Positive, Africans in Partnership Against AIDS, the AIDS Committee of Toronto, the Alliance of South Asian AIDS Prevention, the Black Coalition for AIDS Prevention, Central Toronto Community Health Centers, Fife House, the Hassle Free Clinic, Native Child and Family Services, and Youthlink, among others.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was wrong on that count then.

There's definitely a case to be made that the implications of what he said might be homophobic. However, I think its also important to keep in mind who we're talking about: Ford practically opposes any public spending for any social issue on principle, including many that reasonably should be funded. He's a pretty equal-opportunity opponent of funding of any kind. I don't take his comment as "only gay people are getting HIV, so its OK", but more of "this isn't a big problem as it only effects a small minority of the population and we shouldn't be spending taxpayer money on it." Which isn't necessairly a good or correct sentiment, but I don't think its inherently homophobic either. He'd probably say the same about any other social funding initiative for any other group.

 

[jje1000]

They're typically more conservative, but that does not mean they're all idiots. Not all of them voted for Ford. And even of the ones who did, do you really expect them to go out and research about the candidates before voting? No. They trust what the media and politician tells them, which is what any reasonable person would do. Not everyone passionately follows Toronto politics like most on UT. Don't be so judgemental.

I definitely know this, but usually these characteristics are exploited by people like Ford, who appeal to them using pocketbook issues and mainstream media. To rely on solely those two sources is not necessarily a reasonable choice, it is a safe one. To actually go out and learn about issues takes effort, which people would probably prefer to spend elsewhere.

I don't know if this is a problem that can be solved, the only way to avoid Ford from repeating itself is to increase the knowledge people have of city workings in order for them to make an educated choice rather than relying on soundbytes and slogans, and more importantly to increase civic pride so that people will be willing to actually go out and learn about these issues rather than relying on media and politicians to tell them what to do.

I guess it depends on what you mean by Ford Nation. Blind followers, or just people who voted for him? Cuz I know some who voted for Ford, even downtown, and they are intelligent and well-educated too.

It's not as if they actually liked Ford, but they disliked the other candidates. Me? I voted for the loser, Smitherman. For the coming election I could see some of the same people pinching their noses and voting for Ford again.

I personally am hoping for other candidates to join the fray, because I can't see myself voting for either Ford or Chow.

I was actually somewhat cautiously optimistic that Ford would improve city efficiency when he started. Look how that turned out- I feel that many people voted because they really didn't know how he would act as mayor. Doesn't mean that they won't vote for him again, but this time it'll be with the knowledge of his record as mayor.

 

[CowboyLogic]

Most of your post is comprised of ad hominem attacks. I'm not going to respond to those, because quite simply, there's really no point. If someone doesn't want to discuss issues rationally and goes as far as to call me pretentious for advocating that people can disagree without calling each other names, whatever.

And it leads me to wonder: why are you working so hard at defending this moron? You really have to ask yourself that. How many hours have you spent this week on this? Why does it matter so much to you?

I don't know, maybe 1 all together. How many hours have you spent bashing him? This is a forum where people come to discuss things, and I'm posting here less than a good chunk of the other posters, including yourself - its a bit strange to pull the "you have no life" card on me already.

It's not about 'the other side does it too'; its not about snobbish elitism or some other bs evasion. These are the facts.

I don't think you know what facts are. Most of those weren't facts.

And to continue to defend them and him (ad nauseum at this point) leaves you looking very much like a particularly desperate member of the flat earth society.

Like I said, this isn't science. You like to pretend that its an objective fact that Ford is bad, but it comes down to differences in opinion and values. What's bad for you isn't necessairly bad for a good 34% of the city.

 

[jje1000]

Like I said, this isn't science. You like to pretend that its an objective fact that Ford is bad, but it comes down to differences in opinion and values. What's bad for you isn't necessairly bad for a good 34% of the city.

I don't know if you'd consider skirting the laws, taking credit where none is due, using city resources for personal hobbies, constantly smearing others, and plainly twisting the truth to be 'good' in other's eyes. Ford is bad, period. You need to separate the man from his policies- his policies appeal to that portion of the population, but the man himself is not good for the city. The same policies can be implemented through a better character like Holyday.

 

[GenerationW]

I do not enjoy living surrounded by this amount of raw, unfocused and nonsensical beligerance and if I were not caring for family in the area, I would leave for Quebec or Mars or someplace not populated by such a sea of unrepentant imbeciles.

I suggest Mars.