[CalgarianExOntarian]

This is the mistake atheists make all the time when arguing that God doesn't exist. Who says God must meet our expectations of what is right and fair? Suffering is a byproduct of a sinful world, and unfortunately innocent people can be affected; for what reason, none of us know. Your claim that God can't exist because good people suffer is a weak argument; that is such a black and white conclusion. What I find interesting are people that expect God to help them when they ask Him for something, yet they ignore Him when things are going well in their lives. Why should God answer to those that only seek Him when they want to something to benefit their lives?

I once made a mistake about engaging with you on a subject that had nothing to do with Rob Ford and how Toronto is governed. I am not planning to repeat that mistake.

 

[evvabeing]

During a visit to the West Toronto Church of God, the disgraced mayor was seen standing on the altar, dancing and waving his hands at the congregation. One churchgoer took a photo with Ford after the service and said the mayor smelled of 'ganja.'

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/video-rob-ford-dances-gospel-church-article-1.1548927

My nigga Rob Ford just showed up to the trap (aka my church)... Man smells like ganja pic.twitter.com/yBafRnMR4G

https://twitter.com/JamalTrey5Lewis/status/412366852593950720

 

[One Nut Kruk]

I once made a mistake about engaging with you on a subject that had nothing to do with Rob Ford and how Toronto is governed. I am not planning to repeat that mistake.

You're right, my response has nothing to do with Rob Ford; I'm just pointing out the flaw in your argument.

 

[Forty Fs]

Indeed, a deity could exist and do stuff that no one understands for reasons no one knows. Not sure that jibes with most religious doctrine, but eh.

What I find interesting are people that expect God to help them when they ask Him for something, yet they ignore Him when things are going well in their lives. Why should God answer to those that only seek Him when they want something that will benefit their lives?

Don't know, don't care, don't see how it comports with your earlier assertion that no one knows why God does what He does. Perhaps you should take it up with your co-religionists in another forum.

 

[JWBF]

Not how all Christians think, sadly. I have no idea about this particular church, but I know plenty of highly religious Christians who use "Christian" as a synonym for "good." "No need to check that guy's references, he's Christian." "She's Christian, so I'll believe what she tells me and not my lying eyes." "Oh, he did some bad things last week, but he's a Christian now so we know it'll never happen again." Lots of ex-fundie bloggers write about this dynamic and how it allows authority figures to get away with pretty much anything.

Rob Ford doesn't believe he has anything to atone for anyway, but if he did -- he likely thinks going to the church service and dancing like an innocent kid IS the atonement. And he has plenty of company in the churchgoing world.

RoFo & DoFo are Roman Catholic in their testimony, but the West Toronto Church of God is Evangelical-Pentecostal (mostly). The belief system is usually seen at the step before being born again.

 

[Kat_YYZ]

If any of these people are contributing to the Indiegogo crowdfunding as a joke - as the crummy $1 donations and names listed above would seem to imply - then they should cut it the fuck out. Granted, 2 grand isn't all that much in the larger scheme of things, but it all adds up, and it's still something Rofo can point to for propaganda purposes: "See how the little people love me!" I'm mildly appalled that the stupid fund has managed to raise even this much. If it were closer to the $100.00 range, I'd be much more amused by the whole shoddy spectacle.

Maybe you have to contribute in order to comment, I don't know. The "contributor" Tony Montana is trying to point out that this campaign is not allowed.

Tony Montana said 2 hours ago
For those who think Iain is genuine about getting the money to Ford, here’s the Integrity Commissioner’s memo:

This means that when it comes to defraying legal expenses that are not covered by the City, members of Council may not hold public fundraisers, use the resources of their offices to seek contributions, or receive contributions for this purpose from members of…

You can read it here: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/703684-integrity-commissioner-memo-re-fundraisers.html

also this screenshot of comments: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BbjAIuVCIAAJjSq.png:large

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Oh, man, that is profoundly terrible. Happy guy dancing around while people sing "all the glory, all the praise".

Back in the late 80's a friend dragged me up to a church (sort of near the Jane/Finch area I think, but I'll be damned it I can remember where) to hear a great gospel choir. I was uncomfortable at first (churches do that to me) but after I settled down we were warmly embraced by folks around us and were up like everyone else swaying and clapping. It was a wonderful experience. Point is, I can see how the entitled man-boy could get carried away and make his way up to the choir - not that I'm excusing it!

 

[ShonTron]

RoFo & DoFo are Roman Catholic in their testimony, but the West Toronto Church of God is Evangelical-Pentecostal (mostly). The belief system is usually seen at the step before being born again.

I didn't think Rob Ford was Catholic, the reason he coached at a Catholic high school as he was booted from TDSB.

 

[Anna]

I didn't think Rob Ford was Catholic, the reason he coached at a Catholic high school as he was booted from TDSB.

I don't think so either - Doug Sr's funeral was at a Protestant church. I know there was talk of a first communion for his daughter a while back, but it could be that Renata's Catholic.

 

[SecretSquirrel]

"Well, you know what magistrates are. The lowest form of pond life. When a fellow hasn't the brains and initiative to sell jellied eels, they make him a magistrate."

- P. G. Wodehouse

It is early on Monday morning. Until I read this quote, I had a headache, but it has now cleared, which happy denouement I attribute entirely to your choice of quotation. It has acted much the same as one of Jeeves' magic restoratives. Thank you!

I would like to fire back with one of my own, which I hope will become ever more relevant in the weeks and months ahead:

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Your claim that God can't exist because good people suffer, is a weak argument; that is such a black and white conclusion.

You are correct that it could be a weak argument, but incorrect that the argument itself isn't black and white. The supernatural doesn't exist period, with any gods generally falling into that category.

Does Rob Ford believe in the supernatural? I don't know, but if he wins the election next fall I may start believing.

Getting high at the church is just the next "drunk on the Danforth".

....and the beat goes on. (Sonny & Cher, not the Whispers)

 

[OSS 117]

Tonight Rob decided to get right with the Lord at the West Toronto Church of God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsQdgpRAcRU

This happened to Rob just seconds before he got up on stage---http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX5tfRdkoY0

Also, this is just obvious pandering to his perceived base. I think he flailed and shimmied around a little at one of the Caribana parades, too. Apparently, Rob Ford thinks black peoples' votes can be bought through the magic of dance. It's an....interesting approach.

 

[the lemur]

This is the mistake atheists make all the time when arguing that God doesn't exist. Who says God must meet our expectations of what is right and fair?

The main argument against the existence of God is simply that it can't be proved.

Even if we accept that a god does exist, whether that god meets our expectations of what is right and fair is another issue. If we accept the existence of God AND the fact that his version of right and fair is not always what we expect, why should we believe in something whose version of right and fair we are not necessarily able to predict, understand or accept?

I don't really expect an answer to that last question, because religion and its adherents discourage questions and dislike answers that make sense. When someone dies at an early age or from an illness with a greal deal of suffering, or a tragic event, you're not supposed to ask why God would take them away, because God supposedly doesn't deal in explanations and, as I once heard a priest say at a funeral mass, 'Even if He did explain it, we probably wouldn't have the capacity to understand'.

This is essentially encouraging people to give up, stop questioning, stop thinking and accept that something/someone should have control over them without ever being accountable or explicable. This is infantilizing, cruel and a farcical insult to the human capacity for reason and intelligence, and it enrages me. It is why I cannot accept that kind of belief in my life and I cannot respect it as a basis for the action or inaction of another human being.

Suffering is a byproduct of a sinful world, and unfortunately innocent people can be affected;

You posit that a 'sinful' world exists in the first place, which is not proven, and the rest of the argument from there on makes no sense. How can a God be so all-powerful yet not omnipotent enough to prevent suffering among the innocent? Do 'sinful' people, even monumentally evil ones, not sometimes escape suffering to some degree? How is that possible? How is it fair?

for what reason, none of us know.

More giving up instead of seeking explanations that make sense. Bad things happen, good things happen - none of it can be shown to controlled by anything. 'Everything happens for a reason', as some people, spiritual and otherwise, are fond of saying, is a delusional notion. I'll take 'everything happens because it happens' over that, because trying to accept that good and bad things happen because each individual thing that happens is supposed to happen, no matter how arbitrary it is, is a recipe for making yourself crazy.

Your claim that God can't exist because good people suffer, is a weak argument; that is such a black and white conclusion.

If he does exist and allows as many 'good' people to suffer as actually do suffer, he has a lot of explaining to do about how unjust it is. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot - he doesn't do explanations. How convenient.

And no, I am not prepared to accept random, unaccountable suffering that passeth understanding in this life just to get to another supposed existence (again, not proven!) in which such suffering either becomes understandable or no longer exists.

What I find interesting are people that expect God to help them when they ask Him for something, yet they ignore Him when things are going well in their lives. Why should God answer to those that only seek Him when they want something that will benefit their lives?

That's an issue regarding people who consider themselves believers, not for atheists or agnostics or people who just aren't religious. Someone who doesn't believe in God but expects help from God in bad times is obviously illogical at best, hypocritical or not actually a non-believer at worst.

To bring the discussion back to Ford, if he has in fact found religion, I don't think it'll help him much beyond his existing group of supporters, and I don't think it'll change him politically. He'll have the same unethical, hypocritical and intellectually dishonest nature as before, just couched in sanctimony and moralizing, when it suits him.

 

[kbdid]

I'm not going to get too hand-slappy about Ford breakin' out at a Christmas gospel service (although I think it's funny); you'd have to be one cold-hearted sob not to at least tap your foot during one of these events (said by a total atheist). I think it's a stretch to see any true Pentecostal folks voting for him (being anti alcohol, definitely anti drug and extra marital canoodling - then again a lot of folks kinda cross their fingers behind their backs at church, don't they?) In any case, a lot of councilors will be attending various services in their wards this season.

My only comment on the whole "we don't know why God does X" - come on, that's about as good as the "it was God's will" statement/argument. Views on God's mysterious ways vary across Christianity from predestination to God punishing (insert disaster zones such as Haiti, New Orleans etc) for being sinful etc. and so on...let's not lump all "Christians" into the same boat.

 

[JWBF]

I didn't think Rob Ford was Catholic, the reason he coached at a Catholic high school as he was booted from TDSB.

He and his brother have expressed they are RC, including several times on their circle jerk.

I don't think so either - Doug Sr's funeral was at a Protestant church. I know there was talk of a first communion for his daughter a while back, but it could be that Renata's Catholic.

Doug Sr's religion is immaterial. If the Ford brothers wives are RC then so would they be, if they were not then they would have converted, it's canonical law.