[MisterF]

As long as there are tests and exams, there will always be prayer at school.

Pray to yourself all you want, just don't make me pray or sit through a prayer. It surprises me that legislatures and municipal councils still use the Lord's Prayer. It's only a matter of time before someone appeals that to the courts and it gets struck down.

 

[afransen]

I was a little shocked when I saw Hazel leading Miss. Council in prayer in one of Muse's youtube videos.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Pray to yourself all you want, just don't make me pray or sit through a prayer. It surprises me that legislatures and municipal councils still use the Lord's Prayer. It's only a matter of time before someone appeals that to the courts and it gets struck down.

Ever heard of paying lip-service ? Let's just say it has gotten me out of alot of jams with narrow-minded individuals too stubborn to critically assess my point-of-view on things but rather assert they're right no matter what.

As long as people associate lack of faith with immorality and social bankruptcy, we'll always have a religious intermingling within politics. However in addition to the Lord's Prayer we can accomodate the Muslim Salat (صلاة) or Hindu Vedic prayer (असतो मा सद्गमय) or Jewish Tefillah (תפלה) or whatever daily prayer the individual sees fit, you know like worship rooms in some workplaces.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

when has religion ever been moral?

the whole basis of christianity is that jesus is the scapegoat and he died for our sins. all our blame is transfered to him. where is the morality? the justice? all you have to do to get into heaven is believe, it doesn't matter if you kill billions of people. if you're sorry, you can get in. on the other hand, if you don't believe, even if you solve world hunger, cure aids, cancer, etc. you're going to hell because you don't believe. ya, real moral.

the whole basis for all human suffering is because we just wanted to know what was going on. we ate from the tree of knowledge. because of this, everyone suffers. god doesn't care that it was just two people in the garden of eden. all the descendants must suffer. does that sound like a good deity?

what's moral about being good just because you're afraid to go to hell? for someone to attribute their goodness to their religion is a slap in their face. of course this statement contradicts some of the above and that's another problem with religion.


and also, if god is all knowing, how can their be free will? surely he must know the future if he is all knowing which means the future is already written which means there is destiny which means everything we do is part of some master plan. we are like puppets in a play, we have no control over our actions which means god is responsible for everything.

now that we have established that there is no free will, that means god is directly responsible for all suffering and the point that "there is evil because god gave us free will" is a moot point.


and another point, if nobody is sure that god exists for real, how can they describe him in full detail in what we wants from us and how and what he expects us to worship? it doesn't make sense - religion.

and if canada is truly a christian nation, that means we have to follow the bible word for word. what a horrible nation it would be. if you've ever worked on a sunday, you're condemned to death.

real moral!

 

[urbandreamer]

In my opinion Canada will start trending back towards a religious church-going population. Why? As more immigrants from various religious backgrounds move to Canada and increase their presence (Islam, Hindu, Sikh, RC, etc) the old folks (aka Protestants, RC) will feel threatened and turn to their church in defense of their faith and beliefs. In reaction to today's secularism our grandchildren will be going to church in droves...if my psychic prediction is right

 

[Brandon716]

In my opinion Canada will start trending back towards a religious church-going population. Why? As more immigrants from various religious backgrounds move to Canada and increase their presence (Islam, Hindu, Sikh, RC, etc) the old folks (aka Protestants, RC) will feel threatened and turn to their church in defense of their faith and beliefs. In reaction to today's secularism our grandchildren will be going to church in droves...if my psychic prediction is right

But, I think that people looking to leave their homeland are leaving because they don't want to be associated with such extremism. There is a small percent that retains their fundamentalist beliefs, but on the whole the immigrants coming to Canada and other western nations is a group of people who tend to be more enlightened and want to move towards a more progressive, reasoned society.

If you look at religious radicalism in the United States, the series of Great Awakenings the US went under happened many years after immigrants had already settled and tended to be fundamentalist movements among citizens that had been here for generations, notably those in Appalachia.

I don't believe immigration contributes to fundamentalism, I think it actually has the opposite effect in the longer term. Politically it tends to be children of immigrants that get involved, and the children of immigrants tend to be very moderate, secular-respected citizens of their nation.

 

[JasonParis]

but on the whole the immigrants coming to Canada and other western nations is a group of people who tend to be more enlightened and want to move towards a more progressive, reasoned society.

I agree with that. And if they don't, than certainly their kids usually do.

 

[Brandon716]

I agree with that. And if they don't, than certainly their kids usually do.

Absolutely. Its true you'll find a select group of radicals that do immigrate to other lands trying to "convert" them, including immigrants who want to "change Canada" but relative to the overall number these radical groups tend to be very small in number.

Should a Mosque in the GTA who has 50 members who want to convert Canada to Islam and institute an Islamic law over the nation represent a hundred thousand moderate muslims who immigrate to Canada to move toward a more open, secular government and society? These people may have even committed heinous acts while in their new nation that are illegal under westernized secular laws, but do they represent an entire people? Absolutely not.

The vast majority of immigrants land in a nation to get away from what they came from, not the other way around. If they enjoyed and agreed with what they grew up with, they would still be in their homeland.

 

[Hydrogen]

I was a little shocked when I saw Hazel leading Miss. Council in prayer in one of Muse's youtube videos.

She probably hopes it will rub off on her somehow.

 

[urbandreamer]

^Nothing shocking about that: after all she's an old lady and doing what old ladies do: pray for the youngster Besides, she's probably been going to church (Anglican perhaps?) longer than all of us on UT (and 95% of GTA residents) have been alive.

Mississauga residents on UT I have a question for you: How's Erindale's St Peter's Anglican Church looking these days (the one down the street from UTM)?

 

[gei]

As long as there are tests and exams, there will always be prayer at school.

People can believe in whatever higher power they would like. I'm just against the silly and antiquated notion of organized "religion"

 

[urbandreamer]

There's nothing silly about organized religion; after all, how is one supposed to meet a decent girl to marry without religion and a community church?

Since I never belonged to a congregation growing up (I hate group gatherings/group think) and thus have no strong sense of religious identity I find it challenging to get along with people who have certain religious/cultural expectations; on the other hand, those brought up in secular families like mine are also finding it difficult to find Mr/Mrs Right. Interesting.

Maybe I'm old fashioned....?

 

[afransen]

Really, it's not just organized religion that's a problem. As Dawkins says, any willingness to believe without evidence is potentially dangerous.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

when has religion ever been moral?

the whole basis of christianity is that jesus is the scapegoat and he died for our sins. all our blame is transfered to him. where is the morality? the justice?
now that we have established that there is no free will, that means god is directly responsible for all suffering and the point that "there is evil because god gave us free will" is a moot point.

and another point, if nobody is sure that god exists for real, how can they describe him in full detail in what we wants from us and how and what he expects us to worship? it doesn't make sense - religion.

I'm been having an existential crisis for some time now and have come to some radical and startling conclusions. Your points are all valued and ones I've debated personally before. Be warned though, this is some deep, melancholic ponderings but worth a listen.

My thoughts on religion and life itself:

The Earth, which God has placed us on, is a vampire sent to drain. God took his only son back and left a lifeless, soul-sucking world for the rest of us. The world is cruel and despite one's anger no one can escape the truth of life. That everyone is a helpless victim of fate and nothing can change this.

I will not be saved and I am not special, I am no one. All that I have is my pathetic life, which is full of hardship and pain, but all that I have experienced will lead to absolutely nothing. It will mean nothing. I will die and life will go on. But before I die all my hope, kindness, innocence, compassion and faith will be relentlessly crushed. I can't change my life no matter how much I want to. I am just an animal. I can fake having empathy/compasion/conscience/soul or whatever humans believe they have which makes them more than animals. We are just who and what we are.

Blind optimism, no matter how beautiful it is, can not lift the bullet (predestiny) away from the course, of life, the course the gun has set for it. The power of conformity (organized groups, religions, governments), is stronger than the power of rebellion and disorder (individuality and free will), although in many ways the the blindest hope for better futures would make for a nicer world. This is how the government says their purpose is to help people, but it's just a lie and they're hurting people and eveyone's so blind and they can't see what's really going on.

So in the end its basically about the struggles of living man. Thats what it is. Its just about constantly being let down, hurt, fucked with, fucked over, pissed off, betrayed and it never ending. You feel trapped. The cycle of life to which resistance is futile.

I told you, it'd be some heavy ---- !

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greydon_Square

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3pBtsIm2k5E