[BurlOak]

But if the relief line north is built up to Sheppard (which it will have to be), then you can keep the subway as is (or extend it to wherever the new terminus will be) and build light rail east of the DRL north terminus. Why spend an extra 1-2 billion dollars converting something when we don't even know how transit will be built in the area in the future?

Who knows, but then, maybe a subway to the zoo will actually make fiscal sense.

I recall the conversion costs were from subway to Low Floor LRT - perhaps the worst and most expensive option. Converting to whatever trains are used on the Ontario Line, with 3rd rail power and standard platform heights, is likely a fraction of the cost. And with these lighter trains (that can handle steeper grades), elevation of the East part can be considered.

 

[Hopkins123]

I hope after Eglinton opens people will warm to the idea of subway to lrt conversion. Or if the Ontario line uses a new tech then I am ok with a conversion to that as well. The subway never made sense and someone needs to somehow fix the mess vs just letting it sit and or throwing more money at it using the same tech creating future expansion problems.

Subway to LRT conversion would cost well over a billion dollars. That billion could actually extend the subway further out to Warden, to new areas being served by mass transit. Hush!

 

[syn]

The conversion to lrt or rt technology would be costly but the cheaper cost of surface/elevated expansion would make up the cost the further it's extended. I thought people wanted transit to the zoo.

I think Eglinton will show people that the LRT is fantastic transit infrastructure.

Scarborough/the east side of the city doesn't need two subway lines. If the SSE goes ahead, then I can see Sheppard going on the back burner. Converting it to an LRT line could make sense in that situation. I doubt that will happen though.

The most sensible solution if Scarborough has to have a subway would have been to leave the Scarborough LRT in place (which would've opened now) and focused on extending Sheppard. The City Council compromise plan of having the Eglinton Line go to SSE (with some of it above ground) and a couple of Sheppard extension stops could've set the table for a full extension now. Unfortunately that was rejected by Ford, who had no interest in compromise.

The 7 stop LRT could've been the start of continuous and sensible transit expansion in Scarborough. Instead, we're stuck with decades of madness.

 

[sixrings]

Subway to LRT conversion would cost well over a billion dollars. That billion could actually extend the subway further out to Warden, to new areas being served by mass transit. Hush!

A billion dollars is a lot of money. But it's still peanuts in the grand scheme of things. I mean a gas plant scandal was a billion dollars and no one even mentions that anymore. Even if it could get to warden for a billion dollars that still doesn't get it to the University part of the line yet alone the zoo. Also I know it's not your ideal but having lrt would still be mass transit. Also I'm pretty sure Sheppard goes significantly farther than warden. Markham road would never see a subway until like 2150. Building a continuous lrt crosstown on Sheppard would get rid of another dreadful Transfer Scarborough people go on and on about. Somehow spending a billion dollars to get rid of the transfer on the danforth line was ok but spending a billion dollars here to get rid of the transfer is too much?!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think Eglinton will show people that the LRT is fantastic transit infrastructure.

Scarborough/the east side of the city doesn't need two subway lines. If the SSE goes ahead, then I can see Sheppard going on the back burner. Converting it to an LRT line could make sense in that situation. I doubt that will happen though.

The most sensible solution if Scarborough has to have a subway would have been to leave the Scarborough LRT in place (which would've opened now) and allowed for a focus on extending Sheppard. The City Council compromise plan of having the Eglinton Line go to SSE (with some of it above ground) and a couple of Sheppard extension stops could've set the table for a full extension now. Unfortunately that was rejected by Ford, who had no interest in compromise.

The 7 stop LRT could've been the start of continuous and sensible transit expansion in Scarborough. Instead, we're stuck with decades of madness.

You're not wrong, but this is politics, which means it will get built. We need to move forward and some people need to be quieted/placated to do that. This does that.

 

[sixrings]

You're not wrong, but this is politics, which means it will get built. We need to move forward and some people need to be quieted/placated to do that. This does that.

Whatever is going to be built will be built after the dry gets to Sheppard. When that happens we will find out how few people are going to want to use the Sheppard subway to get to yonge. One because once you get to yonge you will be fighting for a seat. Two because the drl will have less stops making it faster. When those two things become a reality the Sheppard subway will become even more a ghost town. At that point people are just going to want transit to get them to the drl. Lrt does that cheaper and can be built faster. Then the talk of the conversion will happen. We aren't going to build a full subway on Sheppard while build a lower capacity Ontario Drl. None of it makes sense.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Whatever is going to be built will be built after the dry gets to Sheppard. When that happens we will find out how few people are going to want to use the Sheppard subway to get to yonge. One because once you get to yonge you will be fighting for a seat. Two because the drl will have less stops making it faster. When those two things become a reality the Sheppard subway will become even more a ghost town. At that point people are just going to want transit to get them to the drl. Lrt does that cheaper and can be built faster. Then the talk of the conversion will happen. We aren't going to build a full subway on Sheppard while build a lower capacity Ontario Drl. None of it makes sense.

They won't shut up unless they get both subways. That's why I was against the Bloor Danforth extension and supported the 7 - stop LRT. Now by "eliminating" the transfer at Kennedy, people will complain the northern half of Scarborough is not covered, and there will be a transfer at STC that needs to be closed. This is why you never cave to the masses.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I think Eglinton will show people that the LRT is fantastic transit infrastructure.

Scarborough/the east side of the city doesn't need two subway lines. If the SSE goes ahead, then I can see Sheppard going on the back burner. Converting it to an LRT line could make sense in that situation. I doubt that will happen though.

The most sensible solution if Scarborough has to have a subway would have been to leave the Scarborough LRT in place (which would've opened now) and allowed for a focus on extending Sheppard. The City Council compromise plan of having the Eglinton Line go to SSE (with some of it above ground) and a couple of Sheppard extension stops could've set the table for a full extension now. Unfortunately that was rejected by Ford, who had no interest in compromise.

The 7 stop LRT could've been the start of continuous and sensible transit expansion in Scarborough. Instead, we're stuck with decades of madness.

LRT has its issues as well, and being low floor is not really an asset for Scarborough (it certainly would be on routes like the waterfront LRT, but that's better served by Flexity Outlooks). In terms of the most economically sensible solution for Line 3, an upgrade to Mark III vehicles would be the best solution.

Whatever is going to be built will be built after the dry gets to Sheppard. When that happens we will find out how few people are going to want to use the Sheppard subway to get to yonge. One because once you get to yonge you will be fighting for a seat. Two because the drl will have less stops making it faster. When those two things become a reality the Sheppard subway will become even more a ghost town. At that point people are just going to want transit to get them to the drl. Lrt does that cheaper and can be built faster. Then the talk of the conversion will happen. We aren't going to build a full subway on Sheppard while build a lower capacity Ontario Drl. None of it makes sense.

I wouldn't be so certain of that, the Bayview, Bessarion and Leslie areas are densifying, and a lot can happen in 20 years. Maybe we'll finally see some bus routes serving the Willowdale Community, further increasing Leslie's use. If Bayview's ridership can get to 15K PPD, Bessarion's to 5-10K PPD, and Leslie's to 10-15K PPD (meaning Don Mills will likely see 50-55K PPD), I can see the line still serving at least 50K passengers per day even with the Relief Line and the crowding at Sheppard Station. We'd have to consider new reverse commutes from Sheppard Yonge Station to Don Mills station, potentially driving the ridership of the line up to 60K PPD. A new line doesn't necessarily mean a decrease in ridership, especially when you're considering the fact that the new line won't be around for at least 20 years. This is especially true with gas prices only going to increase in the coming years and the fact that the corridor will eventually have to accept being a transit-focussed one, regardless of whether it happens in 5 years or 15 years. The corridor might even be a good pilot zone for flex-transit testing in the region. Again, I think the corridor needs to remain as it is, at least until we see where Relief Line North ends up going.

Honestly, I'd rather see those 2 billion dollars for a subway conversion and use those to help extend the line west to Sheppard West. Having the subway extend west opens up a lot of potential uses for those living in North York, Markham, Richmond Hill, Scarborough, and Vaughan. It's definitely not the most sensible solution now, but it could, along with zoning changes, allow the density of Yonge St. through North York Centre to expand laterally, something that city officials have wanted for decades. It could also open up new routings to U of T, GO, Eglinton West, the airport, and Yorkdale, Spadina, St Clair West, even Bloor West, especially for those living on the Sheppard Corridor. Take someone living at Don Mills Station heading to U of T, their options would be to:

- Catch a Sheppard train, for 16 minutes, transfer to Line 1 at Sheppard West, and head south for another 20 minutes to Queens Park, for a 35-40 minute journey
- Catch a Sheppard Train for 8 minutes, transfer to line 1 at Sheppard Yonge, and head south for 20 minutes to Bloor Yonge, transfer there, head west on Line 2 for 3 minutes, transfer at St. George, head south for 3 minutes, for a total journey time of between 36 and 55 minutes, depending on transfer times (during rush hour, you're very likely to be closer to the 55 minute mark simply because of the crowding at Bloor Yonge and St. George). This is the most stressful journey.
- Catch a sheppard train for 8 minutes, then a Line 1 train for 35 minutes to Queen's Park station, for a total trip time of between 45 and 50 minutes
- Catch a relief Line train to Osgoode, taking about 45 minutes, plus transferring north on Line one, adding 3 minutes for a total trip time of about 50 minutes.

And that's just one journey, there are many many commutes that could benefit from adding that connection. It would mean all 3 north-south routes would be connected by one line. Eglinton will also do this but to a lesser extent because of crowding that will likely ensue along the line within 10 years.

 

[syn]

You're not wrong, but this is politics, which means it will get built. We need to move forward and some people need to be quieted/placated to do that. This does that.

Really?

Politics seems to result in things not getting built.

 

[syn]

LRT has its issues as well, and being low floor is not really an asset for Scarborough (it certainly would be on routes like the waterfront LRT, but that's better served by Flexity Outlooks). In terms of the most economically sensible solution for Line 3, an upgrade to Mark III vehicles would be the best solution.

Every solution has it's issues. An LRT offers the best opportunity for future expansion.

Ultimately the point is that a Sheppard extension makes much more sense than extending the B-D Line. STC is far closer to Sheppard anyways.

If an upgraded RT keeps things running for a Sheppard Extension (assuming their must be more subway stations in Scarborough) then I'd be all for it.

I wouldn't be so certain of that, the Bayview, Bessarion and Leslie areas are densifying, and a lot can happen in 20 years.

In the nearly 20 years since it opened it still isn't anywhere near close to enough in density/ridership to justify a subway.

That's still going to be the case in 20 years based on how things are going.

 

[syn]

A billion dollars is a lot of money. But it's still peanuts in the grand scheme of things. I mean a gas plant scandal was a billion dollars and no one even mentions that anymore. Even if it could get to warden for a billion dollars that still doesn't get it to the University part of the line yet alone the zoo. Also I know it's not your ideal but having lrt would still be mass transit. Also I'm pretty sure Sheppard goes significantly farther than warden. Markham road would never see a subway until like 2150. Building a continuous lrt crosstown on Sheppard would get rid of another dreadful Transfer Scarborough people go on and on about. Somehow spending a billion billions of dollars to get rid of the transfer on the danforth line was ok but spending a billion dollars here to get rid of the transfer is too much?!

Fixed that for you.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

LRT has its issues as well, and being low floor is not really an asset for Scarborough (it certainly would be on routes like the waterfront LRT, but that's better served by Flexity Outlooks). In terms of the most economically sensible solution for Line 3, an upgrade to Mark III vehicles would be the best solution.

I wouldn't be so certain of that, the Bayview, Bessarion and Leslie areas are densifying, and a lot can happen in 20 years. Maybe we'll finally see some bus routes serving the Willowdale Community, further increasing Leslie's use. If Bayview's ridership can get to 15K PPD, Bessarion's to 5-10K PPD, and Leslie's to 10-15K PPD (meaning Don Mills will likely see 50-55K PPD), I can see the line still serving at least 50K passengers per day even with the Relief Line and the crowding at Sheppard Station. We'd have to consider new reverse commutes from Sheppard Yonge Station to Don Mills station, potentially driving the ridership of the line up to 60K PPD. A new line doesn't necessarily mean a decrease in ridership, especially when you're considering the fact that the new line won't be around for at least 20 years. This is especially true with gas prices only going to increase in the coming years and the fact that the corridor will eventually have to accept being a transit-focussed one, regardless of whether it happens in 5 years or 15 years. The corridor might even be a good pilot zone for flex-transit testing in the region. Again, I think the corridor needs to remain as it is, at least until we see where Relief Line North ends up going.

Honestly, I'd rather see those 2 billion dollars for a subway conversion and use those to help extend the line west to Sheppard West. Having the subway extend west opens up a lot of potential uses for those living in North York, Markham, Richmond Hill, Scarborough, and Vaughan. It's definitely not the most sensible solution now, but it could, along with zoning changes, allow the density of Yonge St. through North York Centre to expand laterally, something that city officials have wanted for decades. It could also open up new routings to U of T, GO, Eglinton West, the airport, and Yorkdale, Spadina, St Clair West, even Bloor West, especially for those living on the Sheppard Corridor. Take someone living at Don Mills Station heading to U of T, their options would be to:

- Catch a Sheppard train, for 16 minutes, transfer to Line 1 at Sheppard West, and head south for another 20 minutes to Queens Park, for a 35-40 minute journey
- Catch a Sheppard Train for 8 minutes, transfer to line 1 at Sheppard Yonge, and head south for 20 minutes to Bloor Yonge, transfer there, head west on Line 2 for 3 minutes, transfer at St. George, head south for 3 minutes, for a total journey time of between 36 and 55 minutes, depending on transfer times (during rush hour, you're very likely to be closer to the 55 minute mark simply because of the crowding at Bloor Yonge and St. George). This is the most stressful journey.
- Catch a sheppard train for 8 minutes, then a Line 1 train for 35 minutes to Queen's Park station, for a total trip time of between 45 and 50 minutes
- Catch a relief Line train to Osgoode, taking about 45 minutes, plus transferring north on Line one, adding 3 minutes for a total trip time of about 50 minutes.

And that's just one journey, there are many many commutes that could benefit from adding that connection. It would mean all 3 north-south routes would be connected by one line. Eglinton will also do this but to a lesser extent because of crowding that will likely ensue along the line within 10 years.

Right but with the subway, we can upzone areas like Warden and Kennedy and create more density. Also provide a replacement to Midland station with Progress for that employment area between Kennedy and STC. Of course, the people that advocated the most for this subway will be gentrified out...

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Every solution has it's issues. An LRT offers the best opportunity for future expansion.

Ultimately the point is that a Sheppard extension makes much more sense than extending the B-D Line. STC is far closer to Sheppard anyways.

If an upgraded RT keeps things running for a Sheppard Extension (assuming their must be more subway stations in Scarborough) then I'd be all for it.



In the nearly 20 years since it opened it still isn't anywhere near close to enough in density/ridership to justify a subway.

That's still going to be the case in 20 years based on how things are going.

Again, zoning. The city of Toronto has to actually want to change!

 

[Streety McCarface]

Every solution has it's issues. An LRT offers the best opportunity for future expansion.

Ultimately the point is that a Sheppard extension makes much more sense than extending the B-D Line. STC is far closer to Sheppard anyways.

If an upgraded RT keeps things running for a Sheppard Extension (assuming their must be more subway stations in Scarborough) then I'd be all for it.



In the nearly 20 years since it opened it still isn't anywhere near close to enough in density/ridership to justify a subway.

That's still going to be the case in 20 years based on how things are going.

A lot of it has been due to the housing crises and recession of the 2000s and early 2010s, now we're seeing a huge housing boom in the area with no sign of slowing down, a new community centre, and most importantly, the construction of park place. I wouldn't be surprised if things increased significantly over the next few years, especially with driving becoming less of a viable option in this city as time goes on. An additional 10K people committed to transit along the corridor isn't particularly difficult to achieve. If North York Centre could do it in 5 years, Sheppard can do the same.

 

[syn]

A lot of it has been due to the housing crises and recession of the 2000s and early 2010s, now we're seeing a huge housing boom in the area with no sign of slowing down, a new community centre, and most importantly, the construction of park place. I wouldn't be surprised if things increased significantly over the next few years, especially with driving becoming less of a viable option in this city as time goes on. An additional 10K people committed to transit along the corridor isn't particularly difficult to achieve. If North York Centre could do it in 5 years, Sheppard can do the same.

Is it?

Toronto has basically been booming for decades.

You'd have to multiply the amount of activity on that corridor currently by many times (including commercial development) to justify a subway along that route.

In any case, it doesn't really matter. The subway is already there and Sheppard is relatively close to STC - that's what would make it the most sensible line to extend into Scarborough.