Tewder
Senior Member
Actually by young black men to be exact. Not a racial issue, but a cultural one. This would seem to be an important issue for rehabilitation.
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- Thread starter khris
- Start date
Actually by young black men to be exact. Not a racial issue, but a cultural one. This would seem to be an important issue for rehabilitation.
Tewder
Senior Member
MisterF;236544 The same Toronto that hasn't seen crime rates this low in 30 years?[/QUOTE said:
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Tewder:
Actually violent crime as a whole has been down - the area of increase is in youth violent crime - but even that's relatively flat, with most of the increase occuring during the late 80s to early 90s.
re: rehab vs. incarceration
I am not sure if rehab is always an option - there are always those who are too far gone to be reintegrated into society. I tend to favour prevention first and foremost - but after that, I do believe in having a relatively harsh criminal justice system.
AoD
Actually violent crime as a whole has been down - the area of increase is in youth violent crime - but even that's relatively flat, with most of the increase occuring during the late 80s to early 90s.
re: rehab vs. incarceration
I am not sure if rehab is always an option - there are always those who are too far gone to be reintegrated into society. I tend to favour prevention first and foremost - but after that, I do believe in having a relatively harsh criminal justice system.
AoD
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lordmandeep
Banned
Sure violent crime is down however no doubt about it, it has become far more brazen and public then in the past. I think a UFT study showed this...
I think that is what is driving up all the anxiety and justifiably so.
I think a stragey mixed with prevention and harsh penalties would work best
That it will get rid of the people who cannot be "rehabilitated" and then try to stop the crime from happening in the first place.
I am not saying rehabilitation is a joke, but clearly men who would do shoot on a busy subway station deserved to be thrown of our society for good and I really fail to see why anyone here thinks he deserves a 2nd chance.
I think that is what is driving up all the anxiety and justifiably so.
I think a stragey mixed with prevention and harsh penalties would work best
That it will get rid of the people who cannot be "rehabilitated" and then try to stop the crime from happening in the first place.
I am not saying rehabilitation is a joke, but clearly men who would do shoot on a busy subway station deserved to be thrown of our society for good and I really fail to see why anyone here thinks he deserves a 2nd chance.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
To be more exact, it's young black men of Caribbean descent. I don't know about rehabilitation for Kurt John, http://www.jamaicasmostwanted.com/2009/01/curt-john/ this guy looks beyond hope.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Kansas rethinks its prison policies
Rising prison numbers and shrinking budgets are prompting a new look at criminal justice policies in the US, which has the biggest prison population in the world.
Lucy Ash reports from Kansas for BBC Radio 4's Law in Action.
Raphael Frazier has spent most of his twenties behind bars. He served five years in prison for aggravated robbery and when he got out he felt immediately antagonised by his suspicious parole officer.
"He just didn't want to give me a chance. On my first day out he snapped an ankle bracelet on me. It was like caging a dog up," Raphael says.
Before long Raphael was back in prison for violating his parole conditions. Then he was convicted again - this time for forging pay roll cheques. That was a skill he picked up behind bars from more experienced inmates.
"I went in at 17 just as a dumb kid and when I came out I had tools to do whatever bad things I wanted to do," he says.
Raphael was caught in a downward spiral like many other inmates in the US.
Raphael Frazier hopes the new approach will keep him out of prison
The US accounts for just 5% of the world's population but a quarter of prisoners.
More than one in 100 adults are behind bars and last year, more than seven million or one in 32 Americans, were either locked up, on probation or on parole.
Reoffending rates are high - more than half of former prisoners are back inside within three years of their release.
But this time things could turn out better for Raphael.
He has a different parole officer who is actively trying to help him find a job - and the US's most innovative prisoner re-entry programme is being rolled out in his state.
New thinking
But why here, in the heart of the traditionally conservative Corn Belt? Well, it's mainly down to cash.
In Kansas, as in many other states, prisons are draining the state budget. The number of people locked up increased by 25% in just a decade and two years ago the state was faced with building an additional 1,800 prison beds at a cost of $500m.
Roger Werholtz, the secretary of corrections, was forced to examine how to spend criminal justice dollars more effectively. For decades, he says, policy in the US has been driven by the public's emotional response to criminals.
"We are mad at them, frightened by them, frustrated by them, and so our typical response has been very punitive," he says.
But Mr Werholtz argues locking people up is only a temporary solution since more than 95% of prisoners will eventually be released into the community.
"We have to think long-term and stop arguing about what criminals deserve. Instead we need to focus on what we deserve as citizens and that leads us to a very different set of interventions."
To avoid building expensive new prisons, Mr Werholtz revolutionised his parole service. In the past, officers routinely locked electronic tags on their clients, inspected urine samples for traces of illegal drugs and kept a sharp eye out for other violations.
As a result, says Kent Sisson, parole director for southern Kansas, many ex-cons gave his office a wide berth.
"It was like a game - they would get out of prison and do whatever they liked until we finally tracked them down, arrested them and sent them back inside," Mr Sisson says.
Breaking the cycle
Two-thirds of the offenders entering Kansas prisons in 2006 were guilty of parole violations - 90% of them technicalities like missing meetings with counsellors.
Now parole officers are told to act less like cops and more like social workers.
Sally Frey heads a team of re-entry specialists who focus on the high-risk offenders.
The programme starts inside prison where inmates are encouraged to enrol for job training.
On release day parole officers and re-entry staff will often be waiting for their client outside the prison gate.
"At first some people accused us of being too soft - of wanting to 'hug-a-thug'," says Ms Frey.
"But you know the old 'trail em', nail 'em and jail 'em stuff doesn't work. We want people to come out and stay out and become responsible tax paying citizens."
She says many ex-cons have learned their lesson and don't want to go back to prison but others have so little to lose that they lack motivation.
Paul worked through the issues which led to his addiction and criminality
Ex-offender Paul Dixon, is sitting in the parole office with his wife.
Paul's parents were alcoholics, he started using cocaine aged 13 and his eldest brother died of an overdose.
Although Paul later managed to hold down a job and get married, tragedy struck again.
He was looking after his baby daughter and woke up in the morning to find her lying dead in the bed besides him.
After that Paul got mixed up with crime again - drugs, guns and pimping. He was in prison in 2006 when he heard about the re-entry programme and initially he was cynical about it.
"I was going to try and play the system but these people, they actually try to help you," he says, his eyes filling with tears.
"One day my case manager Rita and my drug and alcohol counsellor, Gloria, made me sit down and go back through my life and face everything I have done and one thing I never worked through was my daughter's death.
"I felt such terrible guilt about that, I always stayed high or drunk so I didn't have to face it."
Talking proved cathartic and Paul says he is now capable of acting responsibly and looking after his family.
Paul's wife, Rebecca, admits that at first she wasn't sure if she wanted her husband to come out of prison.
"I was scared because he used to be a scary person. I waited for him and every weekend I took the kids to see him but I didn't know if he had really changed.
"And you know the re-entry team, they would talk to me and just help me through those anxieties."
Re-entry here clearly goes beyond the practicalities of housing, employment and drug treatment. It's also about psychological therapy even marriage guidance.
Success
The new strategy seems to be working: five years ago around 203 parolees returned to Kansas prisons each month but by 2007, the number reduced by 100 per month and the number of new crimes - felony convictions that people pick up while they are on parole supervision- also nearly halved.
Darell and Laurie had faith in the system offered ex-offender Paul a job
But long-term success depends not just on bipartisan support from state politicians, or the commitment of the ex-offenders and the re- entry staff but also on support from the wider public - landlords, neighbours and employers.
Darell Rankin and Laurie Belk run an auto salvage yard on the south side of Wichita. It is where Paul Dixon has worked since his release from prison.
"We liked him as soon as he walked in here," says Laurie. "He was honest about his past and he is a good worker."
"Kansas has a website," adds Darell. "So I could look and see what his criminal background was and I had the telephone number for his case worker.
"So I called her and she said he needed a job and he was really trying. So we thought let's give him a chance - if he is trying, we'll try."
Rising prison numbers and shrinking budgets are prompting a new look at criminal justice policies in the US, which has the biggest prison population in the world.
Lucy Ash reports from Kansas for BBC Radio 4's Law in Action.
Raphael Frazier has spent most of his twenties behind bars. He served five years in prison for aggravated robbery and when he got out he felt immediately antagonised by his suspicious parole officer.
"He just didn't want to give me a chance. On my first day out he snapped an ankle bracelet on me. It was like caging a dog up," Raphael says.
Before long Raphael was back in prison for violating his parole conditions. Then he was convicted again - this time for forging pay roll cheques. That was a skill he picked up behind bars from more experienced inmates.
"I went in at 17 just as a dumb kid and when I came out I had tools to do whatever bad things I wanted to do," he says.
Raphael was caught in a downward spiral like many other inmates in the US.
Raphael Frazier hopes the new approach will keep him out of prison
The US accounts for just 5% of the world's population but a quarter of prisoners.
More than one in 100 adults are behind bars and last year, more than seven million or one in 32 Americans, were either locked up, on probation or on parole.
Reoffending rates are high - more than half of former prisoners are back inside within three years of their release.
But this time things could turn out better for Raphael.
He has a different parole officer who is actively trying to help him find a job - and the US's most innovative prisoner re-entry programme is being rolled out in his state.
New thinking
But why here, in the heart of the traditionally conservative Corn Belt? Well, it's mainly down to cash.
In Kansas, as in many other states, prisons are draining the state budget. The number of people locked up increased by 25% in just a decade and two years ago the state was faced with building an additional 1,800 prison beds at a cost of $500m.
Roger Werholtz, the secretary of corrections, was forced to examine how to spend criminal justice dollars more effectively. For decades, he says, policy in the US has been driven by the public's emotional response to criminals.
"We are mad at them, frightened by them, frustrated by them, and so our typical response has been very punitive," he says.
But Mr Werholtz argues locking people up is only a temporary solution since more than 95% of prisoners will eventually be released into the community.
"We have to think long-term and stop arguing about what criminals deserve. Instead we need to focus on what we deserve as citizens and that leads us to a very different set of interventions."
To avoid building expensive new prisons, Mr Werholtz revolutionised his parole service. In the past, officers routinely locked electronic tags on their clients, inspected urine samples for traces of illegal drugs and kept a sharp eye out for other violations.
As a result, says Kent Sisson, parole director for southern Kansas, many ex-cons gave his office a wide berth.
"It was like a game - they would get out of prison and do whatever they liked until we finally tracked them down, arrested them and sent them back inside," Mr Sisson says.
Breaking the cycle
Two-thirds of the offenders entering Kansas prisons in 2006 were guilty of parole violations - 90% of them technicalities like missing meetings with counsellors.
Now parole officers are told to act less like cops and more like social workers.
Sally Frey heads a team of re-entry specialists who focus on the high-risk offenders.
The programme starts inside prison where inmates are encouraged to enrol for job training.
On release day parole officers and re-entry staff will often be waiting for their client outside the prison gate.
"At first some people accused us of being too soft - of wanting to 'hug-a-thug'," says Ms Frey.
"But you know the old 'trail em', nail 'em and jail 'em stuff doesn't work. We want people to come out and stay out and become responsible tax paying citizens."
She says many ex-cons have learned their lesson and don't want to go back to prison but others have so little to lose that they lack motivation.
Paul worked through the issues which led to his addiction and criminality
Ex-offender Paul Dixon, is sitting in the parole office with his wife.
Paul's parents were alcoholics, he started using cocaine aged 13 and his eldest brother died of an overdose.
Although Paul later managed to hold down a job and get married, tragedy struck again.
He was looking after his baby daughter and woke up in the morning to find her lying dead in the bed besides him.
After that Paul got mixed up with crime again - drugs, guns and pimping. He was in prison in 2006 when he heard about the re-entry programme and initially he was cynical about it.
"I was going to try and play the system but these people, they actually try to help you," he says, his eyes filling with tears.
"One day my case manager Rita and my drug and alcohol counsellor, Gloria, made me sit down and go back through my life and face everything I have done and one thing I never worked through was my daughter's death.
"I felt such terrible guilt about that, I always stayed high or drunk so I didn't have to face it."
Talking proved cathartic and Paul says he is now capable of acting responsibly and looking after his family.
Paul's wife, Rebecca, admits that at first she wasn't sure if she wanted her husband to come out of prison.
"I was scared because he used to be a scary person. I waited for him and every weekend I took the kids to see him but I didn't know if he had really changed.
"And you know the re-entry team, they would talk to me and just help me through those anxieties."
Re-entry here clearly goes beyond the practicalities of housing, employment and drug treatment. It's also about psychological therapy even marriage guidance.
Success
The new strategy seems to be working: five years ago around 203 parolees returned to Kansas prisons each month but by 2007, the number reduced by 100 per month and the number of new crimes - felony convictions that people pick up while they are on parole supervision- also nearly halved.
Darell and Laurie had faith in the system offered ex-offender Paul a job
But long-term success depends not just on bipartisan support from state politicians, or the commitment of the ex-offenders and the re- entry staff but also on support from the wider public - landlords, neighbours and employers.
Darell Rankin and Laurie Belk run an auto salvage yard on the south side of Wichita. It is where Paul Dixon has worked since his release from prison.
"We liked him as soon as he walked in here," says Laurie. "He was honest about his past and he is a good worker."
"Kansas has a website," adds Darell. "So I could look and see what his criminal background was and I had the telephone number for his case worker.
"So I called her and she said he needed a job and he was really trying. So we thought let's give him a chance - if he is trying, we'll try."
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Those deemed at risk of violating parole, should not get parole. Problem solved.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
So then you let them out at the end of their sentence with no monitoring or community integration at all?
lordmandeep
Banned
imo I may sound like someone I do not want to sound like...
"For the Greater Good"
Imo there have been many cases of violent repeat offenders who have been let off on bail and Parole and they commit heinous crimes.
Imo Parole should not be given to those who have a tendency to commit crime over and over again.
Some people need to be kept in jail for our own sake and for your own sake.
So, you can sit here and lecture us on your high ideals, but I would imagine you be yelling and screaming at the govt if a violent repeating criminal hurts you or your family.
Were not saying there should not be parole for anyone, however I think the subway shooter should be left in jail and kept in as a dangerous offender.
When he comes out what happens?
I would imagine many of his gang members will be either dead or in jail by twenty some years.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Okay, lordmandeep, but so what if his gang members are dead or in jail? A person let out of prison with absolutely no monitoring or reintegration is extremely likely to reoffend. That's the whole point of the parole program. You keep an eye on released felons to ensure that they don't fall back into bad behaviour. Sure, the parole program could be improved and obviously some people will reoffend, but it's a hell of a lot better than just releasing people at the end of their sentence with absolutely no supervision.
Tewder
Senior Member
Maybe we should create a Canadian version of the french foreign Legion and impress into service our hardest and most violent criminals. They could patrol our arctic sovereignty or something like that.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
If they're still a risk, you keep them in jail. Look, imagine there's a dangerous dog running around town biting people. Well, if it kills someone, we kill the dog, not as punishment or retribution, but to keep the public safe, since we know that a killer dog is a killer dog. If the dog just attacks someone, perhaps we don't kill the dog, but we certainly put lifetime restrictions on the dog.
So, when our little gangsta gets out of jail after his full sentence, yes he should have monitoring and restrictions, but not before his sentence is fully complete. Then the monitoring and restrictions should be relative to the crime. Sure, we may eventually allow a once violent dog now considered rehabilitated to enter the public space again, but someone has to be responsible 24/7 for that dog. Same goes for the gangsta, if he's not monitored 24/7, keep him in jail.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
I've said it before and I will say it again, reforming drug laws would go a long way to reducing this kind of crap.
Arrest Micheal Phelps!
Arrest Micheal Phelps!
Brian69
Not the Messiah
The article brings up a good point. If all the rich and famous people in Hollywood and around the music and pro sports world (to say nothing of politicians) were prosecuted over marijuana the way the common people were it would clear out a whole generation of the social elites.
Now, this is moving away from the original issue of violent crime in this thread but really, the prisons in the U.S. have enough people doing time for possession charges and it is a poor use of prison facilities. On the other hand, here in Canada we seem to be too soft with sentencing for violent crime so I suppose we shouldn't get too holier-than-thou over the mistakes made down south.
I used to think that depending on the people to elect judges was a fool's game, but after years of disappointment with our own judicial system I'm beginning to think an enraged populace couldn't do much worse than what we've put up with so far.
Now, this is moving away from the original issue of violent crime in this thread but really, the prisons in the U.S. have enough people doing time for possession charges and it is a poor use of prison facilities. On the other hand, here in Canada we seem to be too soft with sentencing for violent crime so I suppose we shouldn't get too holier-than-thou over the mistakes made down south.
I used to think that depending on the people to elect judges was a fool's game, but after years of disappointment with our own judicial system I'm beginning to think an enraged populace couldn't do much worse than what we've put up with so far.
lordmandeep
Banned
I do not think people in Canada are advocating sending people to jail for like 10 years for drug possession.
I am saying violent repeat criminals should be kept in jail forever...
I am saying violent repeat criminals should be kept in jail forever...