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of course London also has special transit taxes to help fund expansion which Torontonians refuse always expecting Queen's Park and Ottawa to build things.

In case you haven't heard Greater Vancouver is having a metro wide plebiscite on raising funds for transit including a 0.5% sales tax for 10 years. Toronto could do wonders with it's transit system if City hall had balls and Torontonians had a sense of responsibility.
 
of course London also has special transit taxes to help fund expansion which Torontonians refuse always expecting Queen's Park and Ottawa to build things.

In case you haven't heard Greater Vancouver is having a metro wide plebiscite on raising funds for transit including a 0.5% sales tax for 10 years. Toronto could do wonders with it's transit system if City hall had balls and Torontonians had a sense of responsibility.

slightly off topic....but any insight as to how that vote is likely to go?
 
What Toronto can learn about transit from London’s deep dig

Read More: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ransit-from-londons-deep-dig/article22072872/

.....

Critics call John Tory’s SmartTrack proposal ill-conceived, dubbing it a grandiose scheme unlikely to get off the ground. But much the same was once said of Crossrail, the £15-billion ($27-billion) expansion of London’s rail network, which crews have nearly finished tunnelling.

- Despite the looming demand, Crossrail languished on the drawing board for a generation. Even after its approval in 2008, it was by no means certain to go ahead. Now, five years after work began, it enjoys broad support. What happened? The ways it is being financed, justified and promoted all offer lessons that could prove valuable not only to Toronto but to other Canadian cities, including Vancouver as it pushes for the Broadway SkyTrain extension.

- Have business chip in: Almost one-third of Crossrail’s cost will be covered by London businesses, without whose contribution the project likely would not have gone ahead. London First, a lobby group representing the city’s biggest corporations, played a key role. --- David Leam, the group’s infrastructure director, says London First was born in 1992 when business was concerned about the city’s lack of long-term planning. It seized upon Crossrail, recognizing it was “clearly a good project, which would bring economic benefits.” Mr. Leam says that business realized that, if a private-sector contribution was necessary, “that was a price worth paying.”

- Think bigger than transit: A vital part of Crossrail’s pitch is that the project is about economic regeneration, not just moving people, says Ms. Dedring. And key to that is how it taps into East London, traditionally a less developed part of the city. --- “London is historically going through this really fundamental structural reshifting, rebalancing between east and west, and Crossrail fits that narrative obviously very well,” says Michael Hebbert, a professor of town planning at University College London, who chaired the review process for Crossrail’s design. “Part of this is to enable London to grow its capacity without growing physically.”

- Sell the sizzle: Below Soho Square, southwest of where Oxford Street meets Tottenham Court Road, there’s a tunnel that could fit a three-storey house. The huge space for the platform area of a key new Crossrail station began with a pass of a tunnel-boring machine (TBM) before being dug out to its current size. The scale gives the site a sense of grandeur, even drama. Down here, the bustle of London – whose narrow streets and historic buildings posed the sort of logistical headaches that Andy Alder, project manager of western tunnels for Crossrail, cites as the biggest challenge to construction work – feels far away.

- Be specific about benefits: Walk past a Crossrail site, and the hoarding will make a very granular pitch for how the project will help Londoners. Among the touted benefits: bringing 1.5 million people within 45 minutes of “all the best of London.” There will be 57,000 new homes thanks to neighbourhood regeneration around stations. The project is pushing ahead by 100 metres every week and, when done, passengers will be able to get across the city in 12 minutes.

- But manage expectations: London’s Commissioner of Transport, Sir Peter Hendy, raised eyebrows last year when he said that Crossrail would be full immediately upon opening. He was exaggerating a bit, but the comment makes simple sense: New transportation options quickly attract new passengers. And it also made clear the fact that the project is no silver bullet. --- “It’s carrying 200,000 an hour in the peak. Now, that’s a huge number, but because the city’s growing, it’ll fill in pretty quickly,” Ms. Dedring says. “That’s not going to solve the problem of capacity in the peaks in London for the next 100 years. So it’s not transformational in that sense. But that isn’t what Crossrail is trying to do, alone. That is part of its objective.”

.....




crossrail05fo3.JPG


CrossRail is indeed one of the most exciting urban transportation projects going on for me right now. If anyone is interested the BBC made a three-part documentary on it:

[video]www.youtube.com/embed/ITcQMiJkppM[/video]
 
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According to The Sun, the latest poll states that the measure will pass.

What happened to all these ideas about how Toronto could raise revenues or are they already collecting dust?
 
There'd still be a lot to do to make TTC fare-by-distance even with Presto. There's no where near enough capacity in the subway stations to handle tap offs as everyone exits. And can you imagine what you'd have to to do TTC buses to let everyone tap off as they exit? Vancouver's SmartCard implementation for having everyone tap off on exit is going so badly that they are considering getting rid of fare zones so that SmartCards will work.

I was in England this Summer and you only tap to get on the bus but do not tap to get off (its a cheaper price to ride the bus than subways where you tap on and off). Considering the amount of people in London and that use the subways, somehow they manage distance based transit. Yet in Toronto everything seems impossible.
 
Interesting discussion on fares here. Here are two models that I would use. One is a short-term solution given the current (or immediate future) fare payment infrastructure, while the other one is a more long-term solution:

The first is adopting a fare zone system within Toronto with 3 fare zones (Central, Northwest, Northeast, with NW and NE being split at Yonge). When tapping onto the TTC system you would be charged a full 3 zone fare. When you exit the system, you would tap off and if you've travelled less than 3 zones, you get a refund back onto your card for the difference. This would encourage people to tap off, since the appearance is that they're getting money back. Co-fare agreements would be worked out with surrounding 905 agencies and GO. For GO, I would make GO within Toronto the same price as the TTC fare for the equivalent distance, or maybe with a small premium on top.

The longer-term vision shifts primarily to using Smartphones and Bluetooth LE or iBeacon. The idea is that people would download a Presto app onto their phone, where it would link up with their account info, etc. All transit vehicles and stations would be equipped with Bluetooth LE or iBeacon (potentially both), so that when someone enters the station or vehicle they would get a prompt on their phone asking them if they want to pay their fare. Once they click yes, they can show the driver or attendant their phone verifying payment (much like flashing a paper transfer today), or conversely it could just be used later for POP.

Once the person has completed their trip, upon losing contact with the in-station or in-vehicle beacon (usually by walking outside) they will be prompted again and asked if they have completed their trip. If they say yes, it takes the starting point and end point and calculates the fare based on a straight line between the two. The system could again be set up so that the payment at the end of a trip is a refund of the balance.

Ultimately, straight up fare by distance is the most equitable way of doing things, because you don't get any distortions in price simply because of fare zone boundaries. Of course, the system wouldn't be solely smartphone-based, it would just be the preferred option. It would also make it easier for tourists, since all they would have to do is download the app load money from a credit card into the app.

What do you do if your cell battery dies?
 
Yet in Toronto everything seems impossible.
I don't think anyone is saying it's impossible on the subway. I believe the position of most people is that it is just a really dumb idea - which is why we ditched it over 40 years ago.

Though don't forget TTC DOES have fare zones. If you take the bus north of Steeles, you pay an extra fare.
 
I don't think anyone is saying it's impossible on the subway. I believe the position of most people is that it is just a really dumb idea - which is why we ditched it over 40 years ago.

Though don't forget TTC DOES have fare zones. If you take the bus north of Steeles, you pay an extra fare.

Fare zones on the subway weren't abandoned because they were a bad idea. They were abandoned as part of a deal with the provincial government to secure funding to extend the university line north on the Spadina side. TTC was actually profitable prior to this extension. This was partly thanks to fare zones.
 
TTC hasn't been profitable since the mid 1950's IIRC. The original Yonge subway was actually financed from reserves built up from operating profits over WWII.
 
TTC hasn't been profitable since the mid 1950's IIRC. The original Yonge subway was actually financed from reserves built up from operating profits over WWII.

Profitable is the wrong word. They weren't setting money aside for capital costs once services spread out into the metro area post WWII, but the TTC was pretty close to break even on operating costs until the extension and the ditching of the fare zones in '73 Here's a pretty good account of that history: http://transit.toronto.on.ca/spare/0021.shtml

An even better account is John Sewell's book: The Shape of the Suburbs: Understanding Toronto's Sprawl (2009) University of Toronto Press. ISBN 0-8020-9587-9
 
From the TTC website, at this link:

1975


  • Exact cash fares introduced.
  • Wheel-Trans established, operated by a private contractor using lift-equipped vans.
  • TTC mini-bus service begins operation, on the Maple Leaf and Glenorchy routes. Regular buses replace mini-buses on Maple Leaf in 1978 and on Glenorchy in 1981.
  • Women are employed as Operators for the first time since the Second World War.
1974


  • Yonge Subway extended north to Finch Station.
  • TTC service suspended during 23-day strike.
1973


  • Yonge Subway extended north to York Mills Station.
  • Zone fares eliminated on TTC services within Metro Toronto.
  • Sunday/Holiday Pass is introduced, valid for family or group travel.
  • GO Transit dial-a-bus service begins in North York, and operates until 1976. Service provided under contract by TTC using mini-buses.
1972


  • Streetcar abandonment programme is canceled, and work begins to rebuild and retain the streetcar network.
1970


  • Last year that fare revenues meet TTC operating expenses.
  • Senior citizen fares introduced.
  • TTC service suspended during 12-day strike.
  • GO Transit regional bus service begins. Most service operated under contract by Gray Coach Lines, until 1989.
1969


  • University Subway is closed and replaced by buses between Union Station and St George Station, during the late evenings and on Sundays.
 
I was in England this Summer and you only tap to get on the bus but do not tap to get off (its a cheaper price to ride the bus than subways where you tap on and off). Considering the amount of people in London and that use the subways, somehow they manage distance based transit. Yet in Toronto everything seems impossible.

This is exactly the system I'd love to see here. Flat fare for the bus, streetcars, LRTs (just tap on). Distance based for subways (tap-on, tap-off). Just establish a base fare and give credit when transferring to bus/streetcar from subway (or vice versa).

Zones and such are efforts to capture long-distance bus riders. Honestly, if someone wants to ride on a bus for 2 hrs across Toronto, I have no issues with them saving a dollar or two.
 
I don't think anyone is saying it's impossible on the subway. I believe the position of most people is that it is just a really dumb idea - which is why we ditched it over 40 years ago.

Though don't forget TTC DOES have fare zones. If you take the bus north of Steeles, you pay an extra fare.

The only dumb idea is being able to ride on one fare from one end of the city to the other. Can you that with a taxi, plane, train? The reason it was ended was due to pressure councillors in the suburban areas as the population started to increase there
 
This is exactly the system I'd love to see here. Flat fare for the bus, streetcars, LRTs (just tap on). Distance based for subways (tap-on, tap-off). Just establish a base fare and give credit when transferring to bus/streetcar from subway (or vice versa).

Zones and such are efforts to capture long-distance bus riders. Honestly, if someone wants to ride on a bus for 2 hrs across Toronto, I have no issues with them saving a dollar or two.

This would probably be the simplest implementation. The complicated fare rules that try to reduce lost revenue also require education and enforcement which isn't free.
 

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