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They bungled it by making it slower tap than Presto. Have you actually been there? It take light years of waiting, compared to Presto.
I'm in Vancouver from time-to-time, and I do use transit there; but the last time I was there they weren't testing yet. I thought there were still testing with staff only. Have they activated it? This real-time thing seems bizarre. What happens on buses in London when you tap-in - how fast is it?

Also, have you tried the London (UK) tapout system? Much faster.
Yes, it works well. But I've only seen tapout at train/tube stations - presumably it's all hardwired. I've never used buses in London ... well not since they got rid of conductors.

Yes, I don't care if it means some taps may fail if people slide their wallet too fast, people will learn to slide their wallet slower or swing their arm to register the tap without slowing down walking.
I stopped using my wallet when I started getting RFID debit and credit cards. Now that Presto is starting to use debit and credit as well, I wouldn't advise putting the entire wallet up to the reader! We should be training people to pull out their card from their wallet, so I don't see an issue here.

Do it properly, and tapout is fine.
You still need a lot more hardware in stations and on vehicles. And a redesign of most subway stations with transferless bus loops. Is it really worth the hassle? We went away from a zone system previously for a reason.
 
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I stopped using my wallet when I started getting RFID debit and credit cards. Now that Presto is starting to use debit and credit as well, I wouldn't advise putting the entire wallet up to the reader! We should be training people to pull out their card from their wallet, so I don't see an issue here.
Good point...
...That's kind of why I have my Presto card in the plastic window in front of one half of my wallet -- the opposite side of where I keep the rest of my tap cards (PayWave/Interac Flash). I just fold open the wallet and tap -- only the Presto card gets close enough to register. Only my non-RFID cards (loyalty cards, health, driver) are packed in the Presto half of my wallet, so no RFID interference.

I almost always show up at GO stations less than 5 minutes before a train is to leave -- fumbling with Presto isn't going to be a pastime for me -- lol.

You still need a lot more hardware in stations and on vehicles. And a redesign of most subway stations with transferless bus loops. Is it really worth the hassle? We went away from a zone system previously for a reason.
It wasn't practical before, but an improved (3rd gen?) Presto makes it an option again.

Metrolinx's Crosstown -- and now SmartTrack -- is the beginnings of much tighter long term GO integration with TTC-based systems -- it's a portent of the future. In 25 years from now, when we have systemwide electricification, GO RER, addition of lot more interchange stations that makes transferring to a GOTrain easier than the awkward Bloor-Yonge subway station -- some upcoming interchange stations are finally coming to Metrolinx's network and some of them look easier to transfer. Then lowering of GO fares for GO RER (imagine the whole GO network as a network of SmartTracks) -- electricification lowers operating costs, and increases Metrolinx pressure to keep short-distance urban GOTrain fares low, when 15-minute service is initiated in the inner-city sections. And there may be better farebox recovery on fuller trains at future TTC fare levels after a few more raises (e.g. $4 fares in year 2020-2025) than current GOTrain levels. And we got Presto. The pressure is for fares to converge eventually, into a far more unified system -- at least far less mixed than today. Fixed rates and zoned system, regardless whether it's TTC or GO.

The TTC urbanites who never took GOTrains and went away from Toronto for 15 years and came back -- won't know what the hell miraculously happened, how did the subway network more than double in size so quickly!? (thanks to Metrolinx GOTrain upgrade to a real useful-to-urbanites transit system with lots of new "surface subway" urban stations thanks to +Crosstown +SmartTrack +GO RER).

(....Aside: things are happening faster than some think on the Metrolinx side -- they are building faster than TTC is -- You know, Georgetown corridor now has over a dozen brand new overpasses, no more level crossings all the way from downtown to Pearson -- due to UPX -- and there's extra space for new track on the new overpasses -- look a the space on these new Georgetown routes tailor-made for GO RER...er...SmartTrack (same thing!) -- it's now essentially a surface subway ready-made for SmartTrack, creatively saving a lot of time for SmartTrack construction to the point where SmartTrack might end up actually being completable almost at the same time as Crosstown, even though SmartTrack will begin construction much later. Seeing SmartTrack & Crosstown come online nearly simultanously (less than 2 years apart), is a huge amount of rapid transit coming online simultaneously. Tory probably cleverly capitalizes on this..... And we haven't even included 15-minute Lakeshore GO RER that would probably come online in about 10 years -- so the Lakeshoreans will also eventually have their own SmartTrack-style "surface subway" too with all day 15-minute service, as an obvious GO RER route....)

With GO RER electric low-fares for inner-city in 25 years, combined with 25 years worth of TTC price rises, we may actually have a unified TTC/GO system within 25 years -- and all TTC subway maps will contain the GOnetwork, just like Paris RER is overlaid on Paris Metro subway maps. There could be high priced trains (UPX, HSR, premium price for express GOTrains, etc), and identical zoned price system for both TTC subway & the inside city GO RER. Or the same price for 416, with zoned prices outside 416. Or another mutually agreed system. Mark my words, GO RER will bring forth at least some fare unifiication between TTC and GO.

We might be able to keep it flat rate, but maybe not.

Anything could happen -- long after tokens and Metropasses are extinct.
 
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My position was that there is a lot more to do, to get this going in Toronto. What don't you buy about that?

And my position was never that there wasn't a lot of work to be done yet to begin with. I simply said that once the Presto roll out is finally completed, and by that I assumed it would be understand that I was referring to all the physical changes that need to be done to accommodate such, distance based fares would(or at least should) be implemented.
 
TTC if you are reading this (I tweeted a link to them on this post, they forwarded it to Metrolinx already), please follow London Underground's example -- and put tap readers on top of turnstiles. Otherwise, TTC will slow people down.

The current setup was a hack job so they could do a partial rollout. They already know that putting it on the front of the turnstile like now won't work. When it goes across the system every turnstile and exit will be replaced with an off-the-shelf unit that is designed for contactless. The first phase has already been tendered. And yes, they already know that a major issue will be to solve gate crashing (when they open up the gates and have an employee supervise during peak periods).
 
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There'd still be a lot to do to make TTC fare-by-distance even with Presto. There's no where near enough capacity in the subway stations to handle tap offs as everyone exits. And can you imagine what you'd have to to do TTC buses to let everyone tap off as they exit? Vancouver's SmartCard implementation for having everyone tap off on exit is going so badly that they are considering getting rid of fare zones so that SmartCards will work.

Most places do a hybrid system. On the buses you tap on but not off, and if you tap on to another vehicle or subway it counts as a transfer.

In Paris you can exit the subway system without your ticket/pass, but you do need one to pass between the RER and subway areas.
 
Yes that seems to be the key. Their vendor is Cubic, the same vendor for Oyster in London. The Oyster tap-outs all, as far as I know, are at stations, not on vehicles. I assume the implication is that the system isn't as sophisticated as Presto, with less data storage on the cards?

They pretty much all use a bog-standard MiFare Desfire chip now.
 
They bungled it by making it slower tap than Presto. Have you actually been there? It take light years of waiting, compared to Presto. Also, have you tried the London (UK) tapout system? Much faster.

They use uplink during tapout. Presto doesn't require uplink to register tapin/tapout. Vancouver is a bad example. Second-generation readers on our Presto is as quick as London Underground which uses tapout. TTC doesn't use those yet.
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Presto follows the 300ms standard, and it can do this in part because there is a lot of logic on the card itself (your pass, the taps of your current trip etc...). The 300ms requirement is one of the reasons why open payments (V/MC/Interac) are so hard to do properly, since they have to get all of the logic from the servers, some of which don't update in real time.
 
And my position was never that there wasn't a lot of work to be done yet to begin with. I simply said that once the Presto roll out is finally completed, and by that I assumed it would be understand that I was referring to all the physical changes that need to be done to accommodate such, distance based fares would(or at least should) be implemented.
I don't disagree with you, other than the need and benefit of implementing fare-by-distance on TTC, which I'm not sure outweigh the cost of significantly redesigning about 40 of the bus terminals in TTC stations.
 
... The 300ms requirement is one of the reasons why open payments (V/MC/Interac) are so hard to do properly, since they have to get all of the logic from the servers, some of which don't update in real time.

That's not entirely true for the same reason that an ATM continues to function and hand out cash when disconnected from the banks network.

It's easiest to implement a synchronous system but it's not particularly hard (heck, modern message queue systems take care of 99% of the problems) to implement an asynchronous payment system which might let the person in on having a valid card and not let them tap out/transfer if the payment failed.

Presto lets you overdraw the card (auto-top-up failure) for similar reasons. This would be giving a similar grace period to the other cards and similar performance. Also like Presto, they would want to frequently push a black-list of deactivated/fraudulent cards (report your Presto stolen, note that it still works on some vehicles for hours after being reported; they push messages from the back-office very slowly).


Fast phone based payments are proving hard to do because they take a variable amount of time to initialize the payment program then process the transaction. It is fast, except when ... (Android desperately needs a deadline scheduler/resource manager which can guarantee maximum execution times for apps with that privilege). They kinda had that when it was in a special area of hardware but since pulling it into standard app space due to telco demand, IIRC, its been lost.
 
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The current setup was a hack job so they could do a partial rollout. They already know that putting it on the front of the turnstile like now won't work. When it goes across the system every turnstile and exit will be replaced with an off-the-shelf unit that is designed for contactless. The first phase has already been tendered. And yes, they already know that a major issue will be to solve gate crashing (when they open up the gates and have an employee supervise during peak periods).

This already exists at Union for the subway, they have some Presto readers on the wall next to where the employee is often daydreaming.
 
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What Toronto can learn about transit from London’s deep dig

Read More: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ransit-from-londons-deep-dig/article22072872/

.....

Critics call John Tory’s SmartTrack proposal ill-conceived, dubbing it a grandiose scheme unlikely to get off the ground. But much the same was once said of Crossrail, the £15-billion ($27-billion) expansion of London’s rail network, which crews have nearly finished tunnelling.

- Despite the looming demand, Crossrail languished on the drawing board for a generation. Even after its approval in 2008, it was by no means certain to go ahead. Now, five years after work began, it enjoys broad support. What happened? The ways it is being financed, justified and promoted all offer lessons that could prove valuable not only to Toronto but to other Canadian cities, including Vancouver as it pushes for the Broadway SkyTrain extension.

- Have business chip in: Almost one-third of Crossrail’s cost will be covered by London businesses, without whose contribution the project likely would not have gone ahead. London First, a lobby group representing the city’s biggest corporations, played a key role. --- David Leam, the group’s infrastructure director, says London First was born in 1992 when business was concerned about the city’s lack of long-term planning. It seized upon Crossrail, recognizing it was “clearly a good project, which would bring economic benefits.” Mr. Leam says that business realized that, if a private-sector contribution was necessary, “that was a price worth paying.”

- Think bigger than transit: A vital part of Crossrail’s pitch is that the project is about economic regeneration, not just moving people, says Ms. Dedring. And key to that is how it taps into East London, traditionally a less developed part of the city. --- “London is historically going through this really fundamental structural reshifting, rebalancing between east and west, and Crossrail fits that narrative obviously very well,” says Michael Hebbert, a professor of town planning at University College London, who chaired the review process for Crossrail’s design. “Part of this is to enable London to grow its capacity without growing physically.”

- Sell the sizzle: Below Soho Square, southwest of where Oxford Street meets Tottenham Court Road, there’s a tunnel that could fit a three-storey house. The huge space for the platform area of a key new Crossrail station began with a pass of a tunnel-boring machine (TBM) before being dug out to its current size. The scale gives the site a sense of grandeur, even drama. Down here, the bustle of London – whose narrow streets and historic buildings posed the sort of logistical headaches that Andy Alder, project manager of western tunnels for Crossrail, cites as the biggest challenge to construction work – feels far away.

- Be specific about benefits: Walk past a Crossrail site, and the hoarding will make a very granular pitch for how the project will help Londoners. Among the touted benefits: bringing 1.5 million people within 45 minutes of “all the best of London.” There will be 57,000 new homes thanks to neighbourhood regeneration around stations. The project is pushing ahead by 100 metres every week and, when done, passengers will be able to get across the city in 12 minutes.

- But manage expectations: London’s Commissioner of Transport, Sir Peter Hendy, raised eyebrows last year when he said that Crossrail would be full immediately upon opening. He was exaggerating a bit, but the comment makes simple sense: New transportation options quickly attract new passengers. And it also made clear the fact that the project is no silver bullet. --- “It’s carrying 200,000 an hour in the peak. Now, that’s a huge number, but because the city’s growing, it’ll fill in pretty quickly,” Ms. Dedring says. “That’s not going to solve the problem of capacity in the peaks in London for the next 100 years. So it’s not transformational in that sense. But that isn’t what Crossrail is trying to do, alone. That is part of its objective.”

.....




crossrail05fo3.JPG
 
That's not entirely true for the same reason that an ATM continues to function and hand out cash when disconnected from the banks network.

It's easiest to implement a synchronous system but it's not particularly hard (heck, modern message queue systems take care of 99% of the problems) to implement an asynchronous payment system which might let the person in on having a valid card and not let them tap out/transfer if the payment failed.

Presto lets you overdraw the card (auto-top-up failure) for similar reasons. This would be giving a similar grace period to the other cards and similar performance. Also like Presto, they would want to frequently push a black-list of deactivated/fraudulent cards (report your Presto stolen, note that it still works on some vehicles for hours after being reported; they push messages from the back-office very slowly).


Fast phone based payments are proving hard to do because they take a variable amount of time to initialize the payment program then process the transaction. It is fast, except when ... (Android desperately needs a deadline scheduler/resource manager which can guarantee maximum execution times for apps with that privilege). They kinda had that when it was in a special area of hardware but since pulling it into standard app space due to telco demand, IIRC, its been lost.

The difference is that they have a high degree of certainty with a Presto card but much less with open. For example how does it know you aren't just using a blank card you took off the rack at Shoppers? The auth takes more than 300ms so you need a combo of white lists, black lists and fuzzy logic. One solution is to "bless" the open card at a terminal not attached to the turnstile before it can be used. Another is locked exits so you can get in but not out if the payment fails. All the options have advantages and big downsides.
 

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