[Rainforest]

Fair enough but I still understood that Tory wanted SmartTrack to be a standard TTC fare.

Not only wanted; he promised that SmartTrack will be included in the standard TTC fare zone. He will have some explaining to do if a SmartTrack ride requires even a small surcharge.

 

[swaugh3]

There may be a way to make Sheppard Subway useful

That's a good question. Why is Toronto studying SmartTrack? The only end game I see is so the TTC has justification to drop support for the Relief Line. Either that or John
Tory is committed to his plan to waste billions of dollars on an Eglinton West Subway, a project that may very well be more wasteful than the Sheppard Subway.

It's current five-station alignment is imo the worst scenario possible. Extend it westbound at least to Downsview, even thought I suggest it go all the way through York University to Vaughan Centre. Hopefully the latter and get rid of bus rocket 196.

Looking back at all recent transit plans, Rob Ford's was the only one I saw that addressed this at all.

The Eglinton corridor should only be one mode between airport all the way to Scarborough.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Yellow = subway
Blue = LRT
Red = Smart Track

 

[nfitz]

Not to contradict you, but just out of curiosity: who are those centrists that got shut out and can potentially challenge John Tory?

Josh Matlow, who got appointed to less than either Rob Ford or Giorgio Mammoliti. He also shut out John Filion - also not left-wing, though hardly a future challenge.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

This is why it gains so much traction with voters............people need good transit that they can afford and the reality is that many can simply not afford GO fares.

GO is becoming a good system but for many it is still an unaffordable and all the electrification and frequency upgrades in the world won't make a hoot of difference to low income people who are dependent on transit and are on fixed or low incomes which makes up a very good chunk of TTC patrons.

GO could run every 3 minutes but for hundreds of thousands it wouldn't make any difference. The UPX is an example. If you work at Pearson your ticket is $10 plus your TTC fare and the reality is that very few will take it even though it would be faster as it is still too much of a hit to their wallet.

In order for transit to be effective it must be fast, frequent, reliable, well maintained, and accessible and for many even $7 each way is just too much. Pensioners, unemployed, students, people with disabilities, and low income earners make up most of the ridership for TTC and an extra GO fare is out of the question.

I'm sorry but most TTC riders get a ridiculous discount for how far they travel. The fact that its even possible for me to commute to my job at the train yard in Etobicoke from where I live in Scarborough for 3 bucks is just absurd. It's about damn time we moved towards distance based fares which can final happen once the presto role out has been completed. Your freeloading days will soon be over ssiguy.

 

[nfitz]

It's about damn time we moved towards distance base fares which can final happen once the presto role out has been completed.

There'd still be a lot to do to make TTC fare-by-distance even with Presto. There's no where near enough capacity in the subway stations to handle tap offs as everyone exits. And can you imagine what you'd have to to do TTC buses to let everyone tap off as they exit? Vancouver's SmartCard implementation for having everyone tap off on exit is going so badly that they are considering getting rid of fare zones so that SmartCards will work.

 

[44 North]

It's current five-station alignment is imo the worst scenario possible. Extend it westbound at least to Downsview, even thought I suggest it go all the way through York University to Vaughan Centre. Hopefully the latter and get rid of bus rocket 196.

Looking back at all recent transit plans, Rob Ford's was the only one I saw that addressed this at all.

The Eglinton corridor should only be one mode between airport all the way to Scarborough.

Meh. I don’t think Sheppard should be extended as rapid transit. Not even to Downsview. It was built with the wrong technology, and in the wrong location. Eglinton is the region’s new E-W corridor; and aside from further investments into extending Eglinton, Highway 407 seems like the next logical E-W suburban crosstown RT/RER route. It has a solid catchment, is seeing major growth, and planners were wise enough to include a ROW to run transit. Basically all the unbuilt GO-Urban, ALRT, ICTS projects that were planned between Sheppard and the Finch hydro corridor can easily be achieved with the 407. Sheppard is too close to Eglinton’s catchment, and is built with ungodly expensive underground heavy rail technology that makes it a nonstarter for realistic extensions.

 

[chriskayTO]

There'd still be a lot to do to make TTC fare-by-distance even with Presto. There's no where near enough capacity in the subway stations to handle tap offs as everyone exits. And can you imagine what you'd have to to do TTC buses to let everyone tap off as they exit? Vancouver's SmartCard implementation for having everyone tap off on exit is going so badly that they are considering getting rid of fare zones so that SmartCards will work.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy the line about tap-offs - it's done extensively elsewhere in the world on much busier systems than ours, without issue - including in places where stations are sometimes fairly cramped (i.e. London).

And the reason Vancouver's is going badly is not because of the tap-off requirement (which, again, happens in many cities globally), but because of the requirement for real-time uplink communication of the tap-off, which causes delays.

 

[kEiThZ]

There'd still be a lot to do to make TTC fare-by-distance even with Presto. There's no where near enough capacity in the subway stations to handle tap offs as everyone exits. And can you imagine what you'd have to to do TTC buses to let everyone tap off as they exit? Vancouver's SmartCard implementation for having everyone tap off on exit is going so badly that they are considering getting rid of fare zones so that SmartCards will work.

This is why I think they'll need some component of modal based fares. ie. flat fare on the buses and distance or zone on subways, with some kind of credit for the base fare when transferring.

 

[mdrejhon]

Vancouver's SmartCard implementation for having everyone tap off on exit is going so badly that they are considering getting rid of fare zones so that SmartCards will work.

They bungled it by making it slower tap than Presto. Have you actually been there? It take light years of waiting, compared to Presto. Also, have you tried the London (UK) tapout system? Much faster.

They use uplink during tapout. Presto doesn't require uplink to register tapin/tapout. Vancouver is a bad example. Second-generation readers on our Presto is as quick as London Underground which uses tapout. TTC doesn't use those yet.

And the reason Vancouver's is going badly is not because of the tap-off requirement (which, again, happens in many cities globally), but because of the requirement for real-time uplink communication of the tap-off, which causes delays.

With some practice while running to catch a Lakeshore GOTrain departing 30 seconds later on Track 25, I was running at full sprint speed in the Bay West teamway, and managed to tap onto the presto without slowing down and it worked. I reached out ahead of me and swung my arm towards me (keeping wallet stationary over reader as I kept running) as I ran past the Presto reader at full speed without a minor slowdown, and saw the tap register before it passed by behind me.

With a few minor design changes, tap-on and tap-off should be pretty rapid. The stupid location of current TTC Presto readers are inefficient, and they need to put a slide-friendly Presto reader at the top, so you can tap in/tap out without slowing down. New generation tap readers can perform faster. The new-gen Ottawa readers less than half a second to register your tap, and with a little bit of proper design, you can run through a subway turnstile without needing to slow down. Presto reader on the TOP surface of TTC turnstile, please!.

Yes, I don't care if it means some taps may fail if people slide their wallet too fast, people will learn to slide their wallet slower or swing their arm to register the tap without slowing down walking. That works on some tap systems. Efficient turnstile tap systems put the tap reader on the TOP surface. You adapt a tap-while-moving routine rather quickly. It's just as fast as Metropass sliding. Please copy that, TTC!

Uplink for Presto is only needed for faster stored-value refills from online -- that WOULD be nice. I'd like to be able to Presto within 5 minutes of refilling online. They said they are working on it -- at least for ground-based Presto readers -- but it will take a while.

Do it properly, and tapout is fine.

TTC if you are reading this (I tweeted a link to them on this post, they forwarded it to Metrolinx already), please follow London Underground's example -- and put tap readers on top of turnstiles. Otherwise, TTC will slow people down.

Addendum to Engineers & Software Developers at Metrolinx/Prestocard/TTC: (fellow geek here) Yes, reading and writing an RFID card can be quite tricky especially if the tap is interrupted too soon... Yes, it has screwed up early cards in the past with incomplete interrupted writes to the card's memory. But there are techniques and algorithms to avoid that. And please study the London example and how they make it bulletproof. They made mistakes early on and found out tapin/tapout was much faster if the reader was on top of the turnstile. Putting it low in front to force people to keep wallet still, was a good idea from a software engineer perspective to force people to keep the RFID chip still while it was read/rewritten (with new fare balance). But the second gen tech is bulletproof enough to survive multiple repeated interruptions without damaging the RFID chip (Accidentally tapping too briefly) and people habits will change to slow down a tap by habit, and the commuters in London swish/zoom through the turnstiles without stopping, while tapping. That's impossible with current location of presto readers on TTC, since you have to slow down and stoop down a bit; in order to tap. By putting reader on the top, people DO figure out how to put a tapcard long enough on a reader without slowing down, and they will learn to tap while walking briskly. Presto can be as fast as expert Metropass sliding, if Presto is on the top of the turnstile! TTC and Presto can do it too!

 

[gweed123]

Interesting discussion on fares here. Here are two models that I would use. One is a short-term solution given the current (or immediate future) fare payment infrastructure, while the other one is a more long-term solution:

The first is adopting a fare zone system within Toronto with 3 fare zones (Central, Northwest, Northeast, with NW and NE being split at Yonge). When tapping onto the TTC system you would be charged a full 3 zone fare. When you exit the system, you would tap off and if you've travelled less than 3 zones, you get a refund back onto your card for the difference. This would encourage people to tap off, since the appearance is that they're getting money back. Co-fare agreements would be worked out with surrounding 905 agencies and GO. For GO, I would make GO within Toronto the same price as the TTC fare for the equivalent distance, or maybe with a small premium on top.

The longer-term vision shifts primarily to using Smartphones and Bluetooth LE or iBeacon. The idea is that people would download a Presto app onto their phone, where it would link up with their account info, etc. All transit vehicles and stations would be equipped with Bluetooth LE or iBeacon (potentially both), so that when someone enters the station or vehicle they would get a prompt on their phone asking them if they want to pay their fare. Once they click yes, they can show the driver or attendant their phone verifying payment (much like flashing a paper transfer today), or conversely it could just be used later for POP.

Once the person has completed their trip, upon losing contact with the in-station or in-vehicle beacon (usually by walking outside) they will be prompted again and asked if they have completed their trip. If they say yes, it takes the starting point and end point and calculates the fare based on a straight line between the two. The system could again be set up so that the payment at the end of a trip is a refund of the balance.

Ultimately, straight up fare by distance is the most equitable way of doing things, because you don't get any distortions in price simply because of fare zone boundaries. Of course, the system wouldn't be solely smartphone-based, it would just be the preferred option. It would also make it easier for tourists, since all they would have to do is download the app load money from a credit card into the app.

 

[salsa]

With some practice while running to catch a Lakeshore GOTrain departing 30 seconds later on Track 25, I was running at full sprint speed in the Bay West teamway, and managed to tap onto the presto without slowing down and it worked. I reached out ahead of me and swung my arm towards me (keeping wallet stationary over reader as I kept running) as I ran past the Presto reader at full speed without a minor slowdown, and saw the tap register before it passed by behind me.

Nice. The last time I ran like that was when I had catch an afternoon Richmond Hill train at Union. With less than 10 minutes to go, I was still waiting for the subway at Queens Park station. I managed to board the train just as the doors were about to close . It would be nice if we could pay the fare on the train, just like on NYC commuter trains (however there's a minimum $5 surcharge since they prefer that people buy the ticket before boarding the train).

 

[ssiguy2]

A SmartTrack system with GO fares is a ridiculous waste of money as it will do next to nothing for Torontonians.

Torontonians don't take GO because it is expensive and even with higher frequency it won't mean anything. If you think that $3 is far too cheap for complete cross-town travel then fine, charge more but at the same time charge less for less travel. If they were to move to a distance based system it has to be revenue neutral.

One thing that is very good to see however is that Tory seems to really be taken SmartTrack as doable and has wasted no time in meeting with senior levels of government. He clearly not only sees this as a priority but just as importantly as a priority that must get built as soon as possible. He is definitely going at this full steam ahead and construction within 7 years seems very easily within grasp.

Whether you support him and the plan or not you have to take your hat off to the guy as he isn't wasting anytime.

 

[nfitz]

I'm sorry, but I don't buy the line about tap-offs - it's done extensively elsewhere in the world on much busier systems than ours, without issue - including in places where stations are sometimes fairly cramped (i.e. London).

Oh, it can be done. No question there. However London was designed as tap-of on the tube from day one. You'd need a lot more equipment and system capacity - particularly as passengers arriving in the station and tapping out are much more bunched than those tapping in, coming off the street, in many stations. You'd also have to find a way to tap off and on at all the subway stations where you don't even need to show a transfer. That would require a serious redesign. London has never had free transfers from buses to stations, so this was never an issue there.

My position was that there is a lot more to do, to get this going in Toronto. What don't you buy about that?

And the reason Vancouver's is going badly is not because of the tap-off requirement (which, again, happens in many cities globally), but because of the requirement for real-time uplink communication of the tap-off, which causes delays.

Yes that seems to be the key. Their vendor is Cubic, the same vendor for Oyster in London. The Oyster tap-outs all, as far as I know, are at stations, not on vehicles. I assume the implication is that the system isn't as sophisticated as Presto, with less data storage on the cards?

 

[rbt]

That would require a serious redesign. London has never had free transfers from buses to stations, so this was never an issue there

Serious is an understatement. Some bus stations, like Finch, would probably require corridor widening to prevent huge backlogs. Even if the gates are super fast, people standing and rifling through their pockets/purses isn't fast.