[Rainforest]

This Eglinton thingy makes so little sense for all kinds of reasons that I wish it would just die already.

It probably will.

Anyway, the western leg is not a critical part of SmartTrack. I will not be surprised, or terribly disappointed, if Phase I simply terminates at Mt Dennis and the decision on the route further west is left to the future phases.

 

[Rainforest]

Make Eglinton West just an extension of the Eglinton Crosstown and have SmartTracks take over the entire UPX with half the trains {shorter one} heading to Pearson and the other longer trains going to Malton. NO one in Toronto is going to cry at the demise of the UPX.

That's a very reasonable option, too.

 

[BurlOak]

Make Eglinton West just an extension of the Eglinton Crosstown and have SmartTracks take over the entire UPX with half the trains {shorter one} heading to Pearson and the other longer trains going to Malton. NO one in Toronto is going to cry at the demise of the UPX.

The UPE is the baby of the Federal and Provincial Liberals and Toronto is very much a Liberal town. Torontonians must have a firm attachment to the UPE.

 

[dunkalunk]

The UPE is the baby of the Federal and Provincial Liberals and Toronto is very much a Liberal town. Torontonians must have a firm attachment to the UPE.

Well, about that...

After Pan-Am, I expect that through public pressure, the UPX line will gain additional stations in order to serve more local demand and through increased ridership and offset the cost of constructing the spur. Express service to the airport could still feasibly exist, but as part of the intercity GO network.

 

[crs1026]

But you don't want to create a permanent linear transfer at Mt Dennis.

I agree that cost notwithstanding, it generally makes more sense to extend the modality that is already there, as opposed to forcing a transfer, at least where some significant riders are continuing on in that direction. (I will not digress to Scarboro or Sheppard, although I am certainly making an effort to allude to these). In this case, I'm not sure what transfer you are objecting to - Eglinton West to ST to downtown? or Eglinton West to Crosstown to midtown? Can you please clarify?

If you are saying there aren't many people coming east along Eglinton from Etobicoke, I would agree at present, but I do expect that will change with Crosstown, especially if it did go west to Kipling or Martin Grove (at least). There are a lot of people from the residential areas along Eglinton West who work downtown today, but who would be attracted to jobs around Eglinton and Yonge if the transportation were better. It's a situation where build- it- and-they- will- come applies.

Re UPX and more stops - the obvious hotbed for that demand is around Liberty, especially since more than a few airline employees live at Liberty. I suspect there are plenty of frequent business flyers down there too. That debate will pry open the can of worms about service in that part of the world generally, which speaks to streetcar priority on King, GO/RER, DRL, etc etc. It sure would be nice if this city planned transit first rather than letting developers go crazy and then arguing about what the transit needs might be afterwards. But I digress. The suggestion to interleave UPX into RER/ST is the right thing to do, a real no brainer.

- Paul

 

[sixrings]

I think the problem with transfers are doubled when they are transfer for routes going in the same direction. For instance when going north on Yonge it never frustrates me to transfer to head east or west on bloor. However when on the sheppard subway it is frustrating to get out and transfer onto a bus. The sheppard situation is made worse when heading from downsview which then means i can take a bus then a subway then a bus all on the same route. Its annoying. To end the eglinton line at mount Dennis and to forever have a transfer going west will be beyond frustrating. At a urban transit meeting there was a term for this type of transfer that i cannot remember. But it annoys enough people it has a term. Btw i find it annoying when heading from eglinton west to Yonge to don mills that i need to get off the bus at Yonge to transfer to another bus because the busses are set up for either east or west of Yonge rides.

 

[WislaHD]

I think the problem with transfers are doubled when they are transfer for routes going in the same direction. For instance when going north on Yonge it never frustrates me to transfer to head east or west on bloor. However when on the sheppard subway it is frustrating to get out and transfer onto a bus. The sheppard situation is made worse when heading from downsview which then means i can take a bus then a subway then a bus all on the same route. Its annoying. To end the eglinton line at mount Dennis and to forever have a transfer going west will be beyond frustrating. At a urban transit meeting there was a term for this type of transfer that i cannot remember. But it annoys enough people it has a term. Btw i find it annoying when heading from eglinton west to Yonge to don mills that i need to get off the bus at Yonge to transfer to another bus because the busses are set up for either east or west of Yonge rides.

This is another thing. The way our east-west buses are set up in the city is beyond stupid. Bus routes should travel continuously on a route, you shouldn't have to transfer to another bus on Yonge if you wish to continue traveling in the same direction.

I remember watching a prominent transit planner do a talk in Toronto about Toronto's transit system and specifically highlighting this as one of our system's greatest fault.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

There is good reason for all longitudinal bus routes terminating at Yonge. Longer bus routes are harder to manage. On time performance would be greatly diminished for routes that travel across the city. A problem on the route in Etobicoke could effect travel in Scarborough.

However, I believe that there are things that the TTC can do to make continuous bus routes that go past Yonge. I would move these routes from a schedule based timing, to a headway based timing. This move would mean that it wouldn't matter if a bus arrived to a stop a few minutes later than scheduled, as long as the busses are arriving at a consistent interval. This would only work well on routes that have busses arriving at a high frequency. I would also upgrade the TTC's surface route management systems so something more modern. This will help to reduce any negative impacts on reliability that are associated with the move to continuous route.

I know that the TTC is upgrading their route management systems as we speak. I'm not sure if they plan to move some routes over headway based, but I do know that this has been suggest numerous times. The TTC should reassess the viability of continuos routes once their new management system is online.

 

[salsa]

There is good reason for all longitudinal bus routes terminating at Yonge. Longer bus routes are harder to manage. On time performance would be greatly diminished for routes that travel across the city. A problem on the route in Etobicoke could effect travel in Scarborough.

That's true. Imagine having the York Mills bus go from Morningside to Humber College. That's way too long. Having more east-west transit lines passing through Yonge St, such as the Eglinton Crosstown, would be helpful.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

That's true. Imagine having the York Mills bus go from Morningside to Humber College. That's way too long. What's needed are more east-west transit lines such as the Eglinton Crosstown.

True, I support a greater selection of east-west transit lines as well (Eglinton, Sheppard East/Finch West, I also am of the opinion that Steeles warrants an LRT), but I also find it hard to believe that the notably abysmal management of most TTC surface routes is largely due to a particular route management service. When you see the contentment of the route supervisors with holding lineups of six streetcars at Spadina Station and then releasing them all at once, you start to lose faith in those who are in charge of the service themselves.

 

[sixrings]

There is good reason for all longitudinal bus routes terminating at Yonge.

I can agree with this point and as much as it annoys me most people heading to yonge are going to jump on the subway not continue their journey on the bus. However in regards to Eglinton Mount Denis would be a very random place to transfer similar to how Don Mills is a awkward transfer. In fact I often if I am on the sheppard bus will simply continue on the bus to yonge versus transferring to the subway. The subway may be faster but you have to calculate the transfer time plus the how much it annoys you to have to transfer for such a short journey. Eglinton and Finch should be continuous routes. BTW the transfer at Keele and finch is going to be another frustrating transfer on the system. Build more crosstown routes please and thank you. The End.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

True, I support a greater selection of east-west transit lines as well (Eglinton, Sheppard East/Finch West, I also am of the opinion that Steeles warrants an LRT), but I also find it hard to believe that the notably abysmal management of most TTC surface routes is largely due to a particular route management service. When you see the contentment of the route supervisors with holding lineups of six streetcars at Spadina Station and then releasing them all at once, you start to lose faith in those who are in charge of the service themselves.

Perhaps you should ask inquire about why they're doing that. Things are often more complicated than they seem. Smallspy?

Anyways these problems could be solved with more investment ($$$). Not too long ago the 510 St. Clair had mediocre 60% on time performance. A few weeks ago, as part of a new trial, the TTC put more supervisors on route and introduced new route management techniques. On time performance skyrocketed to 95%. The trial was a huge success. Hopefully we'll see similar improvements across our surface route, when the new vehicle management system is online in a few years.

Unfortunately we're unlikely to get the necessary investments while we have a Council and mayor who appear to be committed to lowering our taxes from their already very low levels.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I can agree with this point and as much as it annoys me most people heading to yonge are going to jump on the subway not continue their journey on the bus. However in regards to Eglinton Mount Denis would be a very random place to transfer similar to how Don Mills is a awkward transfer. In fact I often if I am on the sheppard bus will simply continue on the bus to yonge versus transferring to the subway.

Regarding Eglinton, the line had to end somewhere. Mt. Dennis is the best place for a terminus. The TTC will probably terminate the Eglinton bus routes at Mt. Dennis, so riders will have no choice but to transfer to Eglinton Line.

Eglinton and Finch should be continuous routes. BTW the transfer at Keele and finch is going to be another frustrating transfer on the system.

Yeah. Hopefully we'll have people complaining about the indignity of the Finch West transfer, so we can get started on the extension to Yonge.

Build more crosstown routes please and thank you

No problem. I'll get on that immediately

 

[Rainforest]

Regarding Eglinton, the line had to end somewhere. Mt. Dennis is the best place for a terminus. The TTC will probably terminate the Eglinton bus routes at Mt. Dennis, so riders will have no choice but to transfer to Eglinton Line.

If you perpetuate the transfer from bus to LRT at Mt Dennis, then Eglinton LRT is no longer a Crosstown route.

A continuous LRT line will be more convenient for a sizable minority of riders who either need to travel to the Yonge and Eglinton area, or wish to transfer to one of the north-south bus routes.

Furthermore, one big selling point for choosing LRT on Eglinton was its ability to run as a continuous line without the cost of full grade separation for the whole length of Eglinton. Without being a continuous line, Eglinton LRT will still be useful but its original intent will be partly compromised.

 

[Rainforest]

I agree that cost notwithstanding, it generally makes more sense to extend the modality that is already there, as opposed to forcing a transfer, at least where some significant riders are continuing on in that direction. (I will not digress to Scarboro or Sheppard, although I am certainly making an effort to allude to these). In this case, I'm not sure what transfer you are objecting to - Eglinton West to ST to downtown? or Eglinton West to Crosstown to midtown? Can you please clarify?

If you are saying there aren't many people coming east along Eglinton from Etobicoke, I would agree at present, but I do expect that will change with Crosstown, especially if it did go west to Kipling or Martin Grove (at least). There are a lot of people from the residential areas along Eglinton West who work downtown today, but who would be attracted to jobs around Eglinton and Yonge if the transportation were better. It's a situation where build- it- and-they- will- come applies.

I think that we are on the same page here. I prefer to see the LRT line extended west of Mt Dennis and serve the Etobicoke section of Eglinton; rather than perpetuate the bus-to-LRT transfer there.