innsertnamehere
Superstar
except smart track is not a subway, its a form of commuter rail, an extension to Square One is roughly 50% longer than the scarborough extension, and nobody but Mdrejhon is discussing such an extension in the first place.
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ehlow
Senior Member
What's the difference? Let's assume it's 15 minute frequencies or higher, all day, two way. If ridership grows, it could very well be higher levels of service than every 15 min. The stations are further apart on average than our subways, but still many stations will be added at spacings the same as a subway.
I'd expect it to be similar to SF's BART system in a way, which has branches with service every 20 min overlapping in a more frequently central section. It's used to connect suburban areas to SF and used by commuters, but it's also very subway-like and can be used to travel conveniently within the city.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Square One is about as far away from the downtown core as Scarborough Town Centre. A commute people are already willing to make and a place we are planning on building a slower subway to.
Anyway, I'd like to reference these posts from the transit fantasy thread which I felt are relevant to present discussion:
So now everyone is thinking it, what do we think?
(btw mdrejhon, FFS it is Eglinton not Eglington
No, it's called Egg (I'm trying to get my nickname for Eglinton to stick)
nfitz
Superstar
Why did he campaign on an extension into the depth of Markham?
It's almost like he has some vested interest in having quick service from downtown Toronto to Unionville. It's not like Rogers has a potential interest in a hockey team that would play in a hockey arena near Unionville station ... because that idea died (or did it ...).
ehlow
Senior Member
It's an attempt to serve major employment areas. Lots of people live in Toronto (often downtown) and commute to Mississauga and Markham.
nfitz
Superstar
Major employment near Unionville GO? The one time I changed there, I felt I was standing at a station surrounded by fields. There was precious little nearby. Wouldn't taking it one more station to Centennial serve a bigger employment area? Or stopping it one station earlier in 14th. I suppose it connects to VIVA - but surely that should be the province's $ not Toronto's - same why Toronto didn't advocate extending the Spadina subway north of Steeles nor paid anything of the capital cost.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
there is even less employment at Centennial.
It goes to Unionville as Markham is projecting huge growth around it. There is a 12 floor office building getting built within walking distance of it, and development applications for a couple more similarly sized buildings.
It goes to Unionville as Markham is projecting huge growth around it. There is a 12 floor office building getting built within walking distance of it, and development applications for a couple more similarly sized buildings.
ehlow
Senior Member
Just like any other suburban rapid transit line, it requires connecting bus services, like the Viva BRT, to be useful. Yes, there are a lot of of office parks & employment around the 404/407 area, as well as the "airport corporate centre" in Mississauga.
Anyways, you've likely seen all the reports about office location that were the basis of SmartTrack. It's been discussed on Steve Munro's blog, this thread.
WislaHD
Superstar
Regarding Markham:
The downtown relief line already exists: Markham councillor
- Published Friday, May. 11 2012
I-METRO-E - Stouffville GO-Transit Line Resolution
SmartTrack has been around for awhile. Markham is on board with this.
The downtown relief line already exists: Markham councillor
- Published Friday, May. 11 2012
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ady-exists-markham-councillor/article4108236/
I-METRO-E - Stouffville GO-Transit Line Resolution
SmartTrack has been around for awhile. Markham is on board with this.
crs1026
Superstar
Re Eglinton West:
As an Etobicoker I can't bring myself to see a good reason for SmartTrack to turn west along Eglinton. A surface extension of the Crosstown, with perhaps some 'dips' for underground stations under major intersections such as Royal York, Islington, Kipling and Martin Grove would achieve the same routing at much lower cost. At present, the painful transportation flows in Etobicoke are the long commuting times for people in the very north end - long bus rides down Kipling and Islington, Albion and Dixon. The RER on the Weston line offer much more promise to give people a quick ride to the center of the city. A nice subway on Eglinton is no gain for these folks as they still have a long ride to get to it.
My conspiracy theory of why Tory put Smarttrack along Eglinton is this: that part of Etobicoke was the Bastion of Ford support before the last election (both Fords hail from Wards within spitting distance of Eglinton). I suspect Tory was trying to give those hard-core voters a bauble that was better than what the Fords were offering. Now that the election is over, we ought to rewrite history and just pretend that that promise was never offered. Let Smarttrack/RER follow the rail line and let Crosstown connect to the Airport and Mississauga.
PS While I'm on a conspiracy theory vane, I suspect there is an unwritten story about the Eglinton Corridor that needs to be outed. That corridor was preserved as a wide-open (and not that attractive) street for about four decades, on the premise that there would one day be a need for a transit line along it. Only in the last four years, that corridor was given up, and development was approved that significantly narrows Eglinton Avenue through Etobicoke, to the point where now we are debating if there is enough room for an on-surface LRT. Coincidence? My money says that this was a conscious strategy by the Fords to force an underground transit solution on Eglinton. I doubt there is a legally-sustainable case for expropriating development where the ink on the approvals is not yet dry, so we are stuck with this.
- Paul
As an Etobicoker I can't bring myself to see a good reason for SmartTrack to turn west along Eglinton. A surface extension of the Crosstown, with perhaps some 'dips' for underground stations under major intersections such as Royal York, Islington, Kipling and Martin Grove would achieve the same routing at much lower cost. At present, the painful transportation flows in Etobicoke are the long commuting times for people in the very north end - long bus rides down Kipling and Islington, Albion and Dixon. The RER on the Weston line offer much more promise to give people a quick ride to the center of the city. A nice subway on Eglinton is no gain for these folks as they still have a long ride to get to it.
My conspiracy theory of why Tory put Smarttrack along Eglinton is this: that part of Etobicoke was the Bastion of Ford support before the last election (both Fords hail from Wards within spitting distance of Eglinton). I suspect Tory was trying to give those hard-core voters a bauble that was better than what the Fords were offering. Now that the election is over, we ought to rewrite history and just pretend that that promise was never offered. Let Smarttrack/RER follow the rail line and let Crosstown connect to the Airport and Mississauga.
PS While I'm on a conspiracy theory vane, I suspect there is an unwritten story about the Eglinton Corridor that needs to be outed. That corridor was preserved as a wide-open (and not that attractive) street for about four decades, on the premise that there would one day be a need for a transit line along it. Only in the last four years, that corridor was given up, and development was approved that significantly narrows Eglinton Avenue through Etobicoke, to the point where now we are debating if there is enough room for an on-surface LRT. Coincidence? My money says that this was a conscious strategy by the Fords to force an underground transit solution on Eglinton. I doubt there is a legally-sustainable case for expropriating development where the ink on the approvals is not yet dry, so we are stuck with this.
- Paul
crs1026
Superstar
One other comment that I didn't want to get lost in my Eglinton rant: any new scheme should address transportation in the Park Lawn/Mimico area. At one time there was a proposal to move the Mimico GO station to Park Lawn AVenue, where the very intensive condo development around Humber Bay is centered. Mimico was always kind of a wasted stop, except being important to GO operationally, it's in the wrong position to be a transit hub.
Now, the developers are starting to build around Mimico. So there is probably even less potential to move the stop. This leaves Park Lawn with very poor transportation options, and Humber Bay is definitely unnecessarily automobile-centric. Riders in that area have two choices - a very long streetcar ride to the center of the city, or a less than swift bus ride to Old Mill Station on the Bloor line. An RER stop at Park Lawn is needed, or the streetcar corridor to whatever DRL/RER/Smarttrack solution emerges needs to be improved. (It's already grade separated, but it sure ain't fast). It would shift auto commutes to transit, it would solve the growing problem of traffic going north to Bloor, and as the Queensway is developed things will only get worse.
- Paul
Now, the developers are starting to build around Mimico. So there is probably even less potential to move the stop. This leaves Park Lawn with very poor transportation options, and Humber Bay is definitely unnecessarily automobile-centric. Riders in that area have two choices - a very long streetcar ride to the center of the city, or a less than swift bus ride to Old Mill Station on the Bloor line. An RER stop at Park Lawn is needed, or the streetcar corridor to whatever DRL/RER/Smarttrack solution emerges needs to be improved. (It's already grade separated, but it sure ain't fast). It would shift auto commutes to transit, it would solve the growing problem of traffic going north to Bloor, and as the Queensway is developed things will only get worse.
- Paul
WislaHD
Superstar
WWLRT would address this and would be both cheap and quick to construct.
Just as a sidenote, LRT to Mississauga on Eglinton would be incredibly ineffective and slow.
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BurlOak
Senior Member
I have argued against 'dips' under intersection because I think the line will spend most of its life underground, be like a roller-coaster, and be similar (if not worse) in cost and disruption to an elevated line.
I agree to bring SmartTrack up toward Woodbine, and extend the ECLRT westward - but grade-separating the ECLRT to (somewhat) keep the Tory promise of providing a rapid link to the Airport Corporate Centre.
Even though Tory is a red Tory and not a Liberal, I don't think he would want to fully adandon his promise. Grade-separating allows him to claim he kept the intent of his promise - if not word for word.
I see the conspiracy theory the other way since I do not think Ford is smart enough to come up with a comprehensive plan to achieve his goal. I think it was City staff and other Councillors who convince Ford he can make money from selling land. Ford was not thinking about an Eglinton West subway at all, so I do not think he put any thought into how the ECLRT might be extended. These City staff and Councillors knew that if the land was sold then the only solution would be on-street LRT (just as Transit City envisaged), and an elevated or cut-and-cover through the wide right-of-way would be off the table due to space and the tunneled subway would be off the table due to cost.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Even if the goal is to send the western SmartTrack to Square One, it does not necessarily mean it has to run along Eglinton West.
Another possibility is to stay in the Weston Sub corridor up to the Etobicoke North station, then split off and continue south-west, roughly in the 401 corridor, reaching the Airport Corporate Centre.
Routing through Mississauga is a subject of separate debate, but the Toronto portion can probably be much cheaper if such route is accepted.
Another possibility is to stay in the Weston Sub corridor up to the Etobicoke North station, then split off and continue south-west, roughly in the 401 corridor, reaching the Airport Corporate Centre.
Routing through Mississauga is a subject of separate debate, but the Toronto portion can probably be much cheaper if such route is accepted.
robmausser
Senior Member
OR, OR...(and take this with a grain of salt because its logical, something Toronto is not familiar with as far as transit) we could just scrap the Eglinton West portion of Smarttrack and extend the Eglinton Crosstown LRT west along eglinton as it was originally intended to do.
It already has an EA completed (would need to be updated but is less work than a brand new one) and it fits with the geography of the area. Plus, it extends the Eglinton LRT along Eglinton. What a crazy thought.
We already are going to have two insane, poorly planned transfers in Toronto (the Sheppard subway requiring you to transfer to an LRT mid-trip, and the Scarborough RT requiring you to switch to a subway mid trip) lets not put another pointless transfer just to shoe horn an incorrect transit method down an already tight area.
Eglinton is a street, with residential development, and is more suited for an LRT, which already has been planned out.
Lets do it right for once Toronto.
It already has an EA completed (would need to be updated but is less work than a brand new one) and it fits with the geography of the area. Plus, it extends the Eglinton LRT along Eglinton. What a crazy thought.
We already are going to have two insane, poorly planned transfers in Toronto (the Sheppard subway requiring you to transfer to an LRT mid-trip, and the Scarborough RT requiring you to switch to a subway mid trip) lets not put another pointless transfer just to shoe horn an incorrect transit method down an already tight area.
Eglinton is a street, with residential development, and is more suited for an LRT, which already has been planned out.
Lets do it right for once Toronto.
