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Re: Missing the point

That's sorta the same thing I was trying to say...

...we need to do something now for the immediate 'now', and we need to begin the process of doing some 'real' city building exercises for the near and long-term future...

I think it's really important that we don't let the prevailing culture of 'can't' (which seems to take hold of so many people) dominate the way we think...

...lets not come up with reasons why something won't work, but instead lets find ways to realize our dreams for now and in the future!

I think it was Rockefeller who said (not verbatim), "If every possible obstacle must first be overcome, then nothing will ever get done"

And 'that' is how we need as members of this great city (and potentially even greater city) need to start thinking...

...lets stop with the 'cant' attitude!
 
Re: Missing the point

This really is the most stunning achievement of the Harris era: even the most ardent transit supporters proclaim that subways are impractical and unnecessary. There's no other city in the world where pro-transit activists condemn subways as useless.
 
Re: Missing the point

Exactly!

He's reduced our expectations to the point where we can't even see what we've become ourselves...unable to even dream without going into 'negative' 'cant work' mode...

...I've seen it at work, on this forum, in so many places...where when someone introduces a good idea, the easiest and automatic non-thinking response by so many people is...

"...oh, that won't work"
"...oh, that's too expensive"

...and so on and so on...

...even as it relates to buildings...I've seen it on here...where so many people come up with every possible negative reason why something won't happen...

...and now (a bit off topic I know), I'm beginning to hear the same thing with the NFL...just yesterday, I was out with co-workers from across Canada and raised the idea, and right away...the same thing!!!!!...

..."oh, that'll never happen"...

...man, thank God we have some people who refuse to listen to naysayers...now all I want is for those in office to rid themselves of this attitude...
 
Re: Missing the point

This is a forum, and disagreeing arguments are absolutely welcome... however:

In Madrid, they built 150km of subway in less than a decade.
Click to expand...

For people who have lived in small European nations like Spain or Portugal for example, we know that top level governments unofficially act as local governments for their most populous cities.

In the case of Portugal, Lisbon receives enormous government funding ... nearly 80% of investments in the nation. It's a case of putting most of your efforts on your best horse. This lends a large amount of not only money, but also all the resources of the top level government in an effort to make that city, and therefore the country, a success.

In Spain's case, the same is happening. Madrid is pushed as the captain of the nation, in promoting it worldwide and driving the country's economy.

So to put it bluntly, Toronto has very little chances of getting that kind of Government backing and financing. Thus, unfortunately, we can't just start building subways without money and influence.
 
Re: Missing the point

Point 10 was actually listened too, i'm not sure if this is new, but I noticed today that in Union Station they took over some snack food place and replaced it with a clothing shop with TTC branded clothing, most of which actually looked decent.
 
Re: Missing the point

That's just not true about Madrid. For one thing, Spain is hardly a small European country comparable to Portugal, but more importantly the country hasn't at all limited its investments to its capital city. Spain, a somewhat decentralized federation just like Canada, has spread its investments around many cities, including Barcelona, Bilbao, Seville, Valencia, and others.

The cost of subway construction is increasing way faster than inflation. Every year we wait for traffic to build so that the subway will be overcrowded on opening day is a year that the cost becomes further out of reach.

Toronto will certainly never get that kind of support from higher levels of government when the very activists who should be demanding the support are criticizing subway plans as unreasonable.
 
Re: Missing the point

^^ I feel that we can find a compromise. Don't "Forget Subways" but instead lower the cost of building them.

Starting a subway line from scratch is what is incredibly expensive. I don't have numbers in front of me, but adding a station to an existing line is considerably more affordable, and cost is spread out in more time making projects done this way actually doable in our political/economical atmosphere.

Yes, build solutions to today's problems (more Streetcar ROWs where street width permits), but begin extending our existing lines two subway stations every two years.

Simultaneous construction on both sides of the Bloor line could bring important expansions to the TTC subway map without multi billion dollar budgets.
Expand from Kipling toward the airport one station at a time and expand from Kennedy to Scarb. Town Centre, also one station at a time (both of which can be done above ground). In 10 years we'll have reached those destinations, giving Toronto both an Airport subway line and a solution to the SRT needing to be replaced.
From there, continue building 2 stations every two years, this time along Eglinton. In another 10 years both extensions would meet at the existing University-Spadina-Yonge line.

...20 years of continuous subway building: by then, teleportation will have been invented and we'll be dismantling our primitive tunnels. :smokin
 
Re: Missing the point

I doubt building station-by-station is cheaper at all, pound-for-pound of subway.

I agree. If all we're getting is extensions to Vaughan, bring on the LRT, BRT, electrified GO, etc. It is cost-effective and can help serve under-served areas. B-D to STC will have to be addressed... I say replace it with subway and thereafter focus on LRT expansion.
 
Re: Missing the point

^^ not necessarily cheaper, just more doable. Spending $200M to $300M on a project for 2 years is something that can find funding. Trying to find funding for a $1.5 Billion dollar project is more of an effort and likely to take a good 5 years to get underway.

The government could "easily" find $200M for a project for the next 2 years... and then do the same the following 2 years until about 5 stages have passed, giving us 10 new stations in 10 years. A great accomplishment if you ask me... and done "under the radar" without too many complications, but with the political rewards coming in the form of ribbon cutting every 2 years, twice in a political term.
 
Re: Missing the point

$2 million won't build a 10 station extension....
 
Re: Missing the point

oops... forgot to add "000" to those numbers. Thanks for noticing.
 
Re: Missing the point

I understand what you're saying, Metroman, but where do you get your information about what governments would be more likely to fund? In my experience, governments are just as likely, if not more, to fund one big project than an endless string of little projects.

Besides, why not leave it up to governments to say what is or isn't affordable? Why would transit activists, who should be demanding all the new infrastructure we need, go cap in hand to tell the governments that "Actually, we don't really need this, or this, or this. Just give us something very cheap." I can tell you that no other lobby group does that.

I should also mention that short, two stop extensions, are a very cost-ineffective way to expand a subway system, since terminal stations must always be overbuilt, particularly in terms of bus transfer facilities. Every time a new two-station extension gets built, a huge bus terminal would get mostly abandoned. Think of it in terms of Sheppard. With an extension to Victoria Park, most of the Don Mills terminal will be abandoned and a large new facility will have to be built at Vic Park. Then, two years later, that terminal will also be abandoned with an extension to Kennedy. It's much more practical to build and open a longer extension all at once. Transit enthusiasts have just latched on to this short extensions idea because someone somewhere once said that it might be more practical.
 
Re: Missing the point

"Why would transit activists, who should be demanding all the new infrastructure we need, go cap in hand to tell the governments that "Actually, we don't really need this, or this, or this. Just give us something very cheap." I can tell you that no other lobby group does that."

I have no clue who these transit advocates are who you refer to. I know TTC transit advocates who say "Rather than spending 2 billion on a Spadina extension, why don't you spend 2 billion on hundreds of new buses and many kilometres of new LRT lines, bringing benefits to millions of people rather than a few thousand?". I know provincial and national transit advocates who say "Rather than spending 2 billion on a Spadina extension, why don't you spend 2 billion on developing a true regional rail network, bringing benefits to millions of people rather than a few thousand?". I know transit advocates who say "Rather than sitting around waiting for billions of dollars to magically materalise from upper levels of govenment just so we can tack on a few more KMs of subway, which we have been trying since 1978 and doesn't seem to have gotten us anywhere, why don't we try actually getting something done and building something we have a change of actually affording?".

I am trying to figure out who these transit "advocates" are who you claim are asking the government to spend LESS on transit. Seem like a bunch of Wendell Cox or Margaret Smith types to me.
 
Re: Missing the point

I agree with that statement. Subways are incredibly expensive projects to get underway, not to mention that they take extraordinary amounts of time to complete.
Click to expand...

Yes, subways are expensive, but they are a long-term investment. It is obvious that such infrastructure should be put into place either where there is a high degree of transit use, or where significant population density and transit use can be developed. Ultimately we are not talking about a huge number of stations.

LRT, particularly ROW's are essential for the city as well in both the short and long terms. Obviously LRT's make good economic sense, and when configured as a ROW, eliminate the greatest criticism of being victims of car traffic.

While I have no issues with buses (who could), my concern is that they can become the excuse for investment in permanent, long-term transit infrastructure like subways or LRT.
 
There's a danger in declaring subways are dead in that people will begin to accept it as truth. Yes, they are prohibitively expensive here for some reason, but we need to keep the door open... and in the meantime, figure out how Madrid built 150km of subway at a fraction of the cost.
 
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