[unimaginative2]

The "Transit Advocates" to which I was referring are people like MetroMan who suggest that all we should ask for are short extensions to the subway and LRT ROWs throughout the city, instead of much-needed subway expansion.

LRT is wonderful for smaller communities and suburbs, and it can meet today's demand on a number of routes in Toronto. The problem is that it provides no room or impetus for long-term growth ono major corridors like Sheppard, Don Mills, and Scarborough Centre-Kennedy.

The other problem I have with light rail in Toronto is that the right-of-way designs seem to provide very small improvements in travel time. It seems to me that the problem comes from running in the middle of streets. The Gold Line in L.A., for example, runs primarily in a right-of-way separate from any street. That allows it to be a very fast way to get to Pasadena. I fear that a streetcar in the median of Finch won't be much of an improvement on the bus. It might not even be an improvement at all since it eliminates the opportunity for express routings.

 

[Ed007Toronto]

Think of it in terms of Sheppard. With an extension to Victoria Park, most of the Don Mills terminal will be abandoned and a large new facility will have to be built at Vic Park. Then, two years later, that terminal will also be abandoned with an extension to Kennedy.

You don't need to build large terminals if you know that the line will be extended shortly. Don Mills could have used the Fairview parking lot for a temporary terminal. Same goes for the mall at Victoria Park and Sheppard and the one at Kennedy and Sheppard.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Madrid built 150km...150km in this city would fulfill most people's long term dream scenarios. As bizorky says, there's really only a few reasonably short segments that we need now. LRT may be cheaper, but it's clearly not as good when a route warrants a subway - throw together enough LRT projects and you start racking up a serious capital expansion bill, anyway, not to mention to operating bills due to new drivers, etc.

Where's the vision these days? You never ever hear anyone in any position of influence or power talking about relieving the Yonge line or building a line across the city north of Bloor - either of these will take cars off the road while allowing massive ridership growth and future development. There's only so much that transit improvements on a smaller scale than subways can do. Imagine how many hundreds of buses and streetcars we'd need if the Yonge and Bloor lines were never built because we (society and governments) decided we'd rather spend money on pointless new newspaper boxes, reducing class sizes from 22 to 21 kids, and shipping home bodies from Afghanistan.

To make matters worse, we'll probably get funding for the Spadina extension just to shut us up for a while, yet that's the worst possible subway project.

"I have no clue who these transit advocates are who you refer to."

Scarborough councillors retreated with their tails between their legs on the SRT replacement issue.

 

[spmarshall]

To be fair, I don't think the city is paying for the newspaper boxes, but the class size caps are problematic (the caps only apply to primary grades, so older students are in big classes still, and in high growth schools, this means a sea (or a bigger sea) of portables.

The way the Scarborough councillors rolled over and played dead surprised me. I wouldn't mind seeing a proper multi-branched LRT network (reduce transfers and congestion at STC), but otherwise subway is the way to go for the two stops to STC. Again, so much more ridership there than the Sorbara Extension (though I think just to York U could be justifiable)

I was glancing through a copy of the 1973 book "50 Years of Progressive Transit" (a great early history of the TTC, and ends when the Yonge line extension is opening, trolley buses are being renewed, and GM New Looks are the king of the road - too bad the 50 years from 1971 on are likely never to be progressive in comparison) and saw the 1940s plan for the TTC subway - the Yonge Line and the Queen streetcar subway.

I bet if we built both, we'd still have the B-D line and the later extensions. And we'd have a decent east-west downtown line that would help today with the overcrowded Yonge trains. And a tunnel long enough could become a pre-Metro or a mini-Metro.

 

[cdl42]

There is an important role for subway in the city and there is a clear need for more subways. That's for sure. But attacking people who propose LRT as being more realistic under current circumstances isn't going to help anyone.

NO ONE is proposing a subway under Finch, but it seems like a great candidate for median light rail. Adding light rail does not mean that rush-hour express buses have to be removed, and Finch doesn't really compare to Spadina (which has its own issues and shouldn't be used to criticise all LRT proposals). In Amsterdam one of the city's subway lines raises a pantograph at South Station and runs speedily down the median of Beneluxbann, serving they city's southern suburbs. Calgary's LRT runs in street medians for part of the system. In Munich I rode a tram from Westfriedhof to the city centre down the median of Dachauer Strasse, separated from the traffic lanes by a nice shrubbery, and zipped along, overtaking cars stopped in traffic. What do these people know that apparently Toronto is not even capable of learning?

When advocates call for more LRT it doesn't just mean Spadina-like lines. LA's Gold Line is a great example, and there are many corridors throughout the city where this could be possible.

 

[unimaginative2]

I certainly don't dismiss all new LRT construction, despite my issues with Spadina. I was very supportive of the St. Clair reconstruction, for example.

The big difference with European surface transit is the infrequency of stops. Toronto streetcars and buses stop at virtually every intersection, while European routes typically travel multiple blocks between stops. They also tend to operate on a proof-of-payment system which allows passengers to board at all doors.

I lived in Munich, and I can tell you that the biggest difference aside from the ones I outlined above is that the vast majority of riders are underground on the U- and S-Bahns, leaving the LRT to much less busy corridors.

I'm extremely supportive of the idea of an LRT along the Scarborough GO corridor. Highway 407 and the Midtown GO corridor are also excellent potential routes. Your idea for a light-rail line up the hydro corridor from Kipling in Etobicoke might not be a bad idea either. I'm just not convinced that a streetcar along the median of Finch or McCowan would provide an increase in capacity or a decrease in travel times commensurate with the hundreds of millions of dollars that it would cost.

 

[cdl42]

Fair enough. I can't agree more with: "The big difference with European surface transit is the infrequency of stops. Toronto streetcars and buses stop at virtually every intersection, while European routes typically travel multiple blocks between stops. They also tend to operate on a proof-of-payment system which allows passengers to board at all doors."

The next generation of streetcars which the TTC is currently looking in to are already reported to be POP. But something really needs to be done about surface route stop spacing. There's no rhyme or reason and stops are far too close together. But there's no reason a new line would have to follow these same mistakes.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"I fear that a streetcar in the median of Finch won't be much of an improvement on the bus."

Buses can pass each other...they do this all the time, leapfrogging crowded buses to pick up people up ahead, which then allows the packed bus to skip some stops. Rogue drivers sometimes even ask those who aren't going to a subway station to get on the bus right behind so that this one can zoom straight to the terminal. Travelling by bus this way is extremely fast. LRT would undoubtedly have a higher capacity, though, but if the time savings are marginal or non-existant, is it worth spending the money?

 

[unimaginative2]

I say all this with the greatest respect to MetroMan and others. Many of MetroMan's points are outstanding and interesting, but I just disagree with his point of view of lobbying for transit expansion.

I'm just not convinced by the case for LRT in the median of streets like Finch. I'm definitely receptive to hearing things that I've missed, and I like the idea of more light rail on separate corridors, but it seems to me like a streetcar in that location wouldn't really have significant benefits compared with the cost. I don't think $300 million is an unreasonable ballpark figure for the cost. As you said, buses would have to be maintained on the route if any kind of express service would be provided. Of course, these buses would get stuck in the same traffic as cars, eliminating much of the ROW's benefit. The streetcar would have greater capacity than the existing 40-foot buses, but couldn't most of that capacity be obtained by buying new articulated buses? It just seems to me that LRT mostly makes more sense on routes that are completely separated from existing road corridors.

 

[cdl42]

Well, then it's the classic problem of the fact that destination and origins are located along streets like Finch so that's where people need to head anyway. Traffic and Finch is pretty bad and median ROWs would allow vehicles to bypass that traffic. Intersections are far between, and with a proper signal priority I have no doubt in my mind that travel time could be cut considerably.

With a proper light rail line the need for express buses would be greatly reduced anyway; this is normal when a new rail line is opened.

I guess the other point is, why support the St. Clair ROW but oppose ROWs on suburban streets that are even better suited to median ROWs? Why not use buses everywhere? Why are other cities building/planning median LRT (including both York Region and Mississauga)? There are capacity and comfort benefits offered by rail vehicles and with an independent ROW I have no doubt that a major speed benefit could be offered as well.

 

[unimaginative2]

Is Finch (or other similar suburban arterials) more suited to rights of way than St. Clair? Finch is a four lane road for much of its length, lined with single family homes. It would be extremely difficult to wedge in a right of way without reducing Finch to one lane each way.

I support the St. Clair ROW and other downtown light rail projects without question because the distances travelled are much shorter. Someone riding from Morningside and Finch to Yonge might be better served by a mixture of express and local services, and the cost for light rail would be far higher than on a relatively short route like St. Clair.

 

[drum118]

1..To build subways in TO as well going into the 905, you are going to need $35 Billion in today capital cost as well $60-$100 Million in operation cost per year.

2..Also, where are you going to get the power to support the 150km plus extension?

3...You are going to need $7 billion to build 450km of new LRT lines as well obtaining 400 new LRT’s. New LRT’s line will run into the 905.

4..Again, where is the power going to come to service this?

5..To electrify the GO system see 2.

6…What subway line should get built first and why?

7…Lines to be looked at. Building the YUS to Hwy 7, extending the Yonge line to Richmond Centre, BD to Sq One, BD to STC and then north to hwy 7, extending the Sheppard line east to Meadowvale bypassing the STC, extending the Sheppard line west to Weston Rd then to the airport, building the Eglinton line from Kingston Rd to the airport, Queen St line from the BD Victoria station then north to hwy 7 in the east to Jane BD station in the west.

You need a new north-south line to take the pressure off the Yonge line and that could be the Queen line.

8…You need no less than 300 additional buses to deal with today overcrowding until the new subway extension and new LRT lines come on line.

9…GO needs to start servicing the 416 lines every 20 minutes as well the 905.

10…Need to run surface routes on top of subway lines to deal with ridership that are more than 5 minute walk from a subway station.

11…The Government must come up with $75 billion over the next 20 years to build a GTA true transit system.

12…Look at putting the crosstown GO line into service.

13…Look at putting Rapid transit on 401, 400, DV and 427.

14…You cannot build one station at a time as cost is to high to do this in the first place.

15….Need to have LRT/BRT lines in service before moving to subway system to help to build up the ridership that will support a subway system in the first place.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Every dollar wasted on streetcars on suburban arterials like Finch is a dollar that could have gone towards an infinitely better solution - a crosstown subway line. If the buses are kept to offer express services, you're talking about several several hundred million dollar capital projects with major operating costs, too. Accordion buses would have a greater capacity than streetcars because they're so much faster. When Finch is reduced to one lane of traffic, the cars will move to Steeles, Sheppard, etc., where they will wreak havoc with other TTC routes, or they will move to the 401 and 407.

 

[cdl42]

There certainly seems to be a lot of assumptions being tossed around in this thread.

 

[pw20]

Thoughts:
- reduce the stops on the Spadina LRT Line.
- Weston Subway or surfaceway... transit where it is needed.