[scarberiankhatru]

The Bradford, Richmond Hill, and Stouffville lines combined run just 24 trains per day, 12 north, and 12 south. These three lines also pass closest to three of the subway extensions most likely to proceed: Spadina to Vaughan, Sheppard east (or west - they built 3 platforms at Yonge for a reason), and the SRT replacement. Of course it would be foolish to finish all three of these lines (and perhaps other projects) and only then begin funding major GO train expansion, but GO trains will not solve all our transit problems...they won't solve all of the 905's transit problems, either. While the province and the region focuses on stuff like GO trains, the city of Toronto still needs to focus on moving people around the 416. GO trains and streetcars in the middle of suburban arterials - the two heralded saviours of Toronto transit - will not do this. GO trains and ROWs have their place, as do regular buses, subways, and real light rail.

 

[Darkstar416]

The big difference with European surface transit is the infrequency of stops. Toronto streetcars and buses stop at virtually every intersection, while European routes typically travel multiple blocks between stops. They also tend to operate on a proof-of-payment system which allows passengers to board at all doors.

After spending three weeks recently in three of Europe's major transit cities, I can't agree with this enough. Not even including those quirky Sunday stops, I'd say we have at least 30 to 40% too many stops on all streetcar lines. I'd also say our bus stop placement isn't qute as bad, but that there's still at least 25% too many.

If a transit planner from Amsterdam came to Toronto and took a look at the 501 Queen and how it operates through the central city, they'd probably recommend stops at the following (and only the following)...

Broadview -> River -> Parliament -> Sherbourne -> Jarvis -> Yonge -> Bay (maybe) -> University -> Spadina -> Bathurst -> Trinity Bellwoods -> Ossington -> Dufferin. And that's it! 12 stops through the downtown, not the 30-something we currently have. Each of the 12 stops would also come with proper platforms and where the vehicle operates in mixed-traffic, proper stoplights would be installed to ensure that vehicles stop well-behind the open doors of the tram.

BTW, they'd also probably recommend burying the entire line, but that's another story.

 

[socialwoe]

"Broadview -> River -> Parliament -> Sherbourne -> Jarvis -> Yonge -> Bay (maybe) -> University -> Spadina -> Bathurst -> Trinity Bellwoods -> Ossington -> Dufferin.
BTW, they'd also probably recommend burying the entire line, but that's another story."

This is a good idea except the ride wouldn't be much faster considering all the mandatory stops traffic lights cause plus all the cars. But burying it as you say brings us back to what the 501 should be... a subway! The locations are good except make Jarvis and Sherbourne into one stop, add a stop at CHUM/John/Queen West and move the Spadina stop further north to serve the heavily congested Chinatown/Kennsington area. In the long term extend out to Ronchesvalles and east to the Beaches/Fallingbrook.

 

[spmarshall]

I agree with there being too may streetcar stops (and too many bus stops) in some areas, but I wouldn't cut the number of stops by as much as you suggest.

I would cut the stops at Victoria on Dundas, Queen, King, the stops at York on Queen and King, the stop on Simcoe at King, the stops at McCaul and Queen and Dundas, and probably a few more. The spacing you suggest would be perfect if the Queen car was buried in a streetcar subway.

 

[Darkstar416]

The spacing you suggest would be perfect if the Queen car was buried in a streetcar subway.

So why does surface transit in other cities have their stop spacing so far apart, but we can't?

Sort of related...but I think busy transit intersections (like Spadina & Dundas) should also have token machines at all the stops.

 

[cdl42]

Why should stop spacing be all that different for surface transit than if it were buried? Why would an acceptable walk to an underground stop be an unacceptable walk to a surface stop? It's the same walk! I haven't heard any complaints from people who live on Bloor and The Danforth.

I agree with token machines at major stops. In fact, the TTC should spend some cash on ticket machines for all the major 501 stops to speed up the POP (and make it more valid). Pop your cash or token into the machine at the stop to get your "transfer" and board by all doors, leaving the front door for those paying with tickets and otherwise confused individuals. I would propose the same for the 510, though that would require a fare barrier to be installed at Spadina and Union stations.

 

[Darkstar416]

I totally agree CDL. We simply have way too many stops. It slows down transit (and vehicular traffic). Stops should be placed at major blocks and/or at transit connections.

that would require a fare barrier to be installed at Spadina and Union stations.

Why? So people abusing the POP wouldn't be able to get on the subway?

 

[spmarshall]

Why should stop spacing be all that different for surface transit than if it were buried? Why would an acceptable walk to an underground stop be an unacceptable walk to a surface stop? It's the same walk! I haven't heard any complaints from people who live on Bloor and The Danforth.

Higher order transit is based on speed. It would be stupid to have subway stops every block. People will walk further to a subway station because it is a subway station. I don't hink people will want to walk long distances to catch a bus. I am in favour of some rationalization of streetcar stops, but having no stop between Spadina and University, or Spadina and Bathurst for instance, is not a good idea for surface transit.

 

[cdl42]

"Why? So people abusing the POP wouldn't be able to get on the subway?"

Yup. It wouldn't be difficult at Spadina, it would just take some money... always a rare resource in Toronto and the TTC.

Back to stop spacing, what really drives me up the wall is the inconsistency. On Dundas, between Bathurst and Ossington there are 3 stops westbound and 4 stops eastbound. Between Bathurst and Spadina there is 1 stop on both Queen and Dundas, but 2 stops on College. Ossington to Dufferin, one stop on the subway is 4 stops on the Dundas car. Stops are often only a single block apart. And those are just the ones I remember from my old nabe.

I would propose an average of 2 surface stops or less for every 1 Bloor/Danforth subway stop distance.

In my experience, distances are exaggerated in people's mind's eye... when discussing this very topic with a fellow forum member who was skeptical, we stood at the intersection of a stop that I would nominate for removal (Dundas and Chestnut, IIRC) and I said "Now look left [to Bay] and look right [to University]... counting that the maximum distance that you would have to walk is from here to those points, is that a long walk to catch a streetcar?" His response was that it wasn't far at all.

I would suggest that everyone do the same thing. Get out on the street and actually look, it's far less than you think.

 

[spmarshall]

Chestnut would be a stop I'd get rid of. I would not get rid of all stops between major streets though. I think Darkstar's suggestion was too far in the other direction for surface stops.

 

[officedweller]

Vancouver is building a 15km subway for only $2B? Or do you mean some kind of LRT or something?

Sorry bit late on this.

The Canada Line will be 19.1 km with 2 branches to Richmond and Vancouver International Airport. Almost all of the line within Vancouver city limits is underground - built either using cut and cover or bored tunnel. For YVR, the line will serve double duty as an airport shuttle and regional rapid transit (rides between the 3 YVR stops will be free - i.e. Terminals, Air Canada Hangar and long term parking).

Funding (amounts from wiki, not sure what year$ quoted) is as follows:
Government of Canada: $450 million
Government of British Columbia: $365 million
Vancouver Airport Authority: $300 million
TransLink: $400 million
City of Vancouver: $27 million (for Olympic Village Station)
InTransitBC (private sector partner): $700 million
TOTAL COST (approx): $2.242 Billion

The third rail automated vehicles (manufactured by Rotem, a subsidiary of Hyundai) are wider than Skytrain MKII vehicles - married pairs (gangway linked) are 41m long and 3m wide. So I think that is similar in size to a 2-car TTC train.
Platforms are very short - only 40m to start and expandable to 50m. Ultimate capacity is specified in the Request for Proposals and in the Concession Agreement with InTransitBC at 15,000 ppdph (technology and platform lengths were at the discretion of the bidder).

So the scale of the subway infrastructure is smaller than Toronto's heavy rail subway, vehicles are larger than Skytrain MKII cars, but line capacity is lower than Skytrain's theoretical 20,000 ppdph.

The scale of the vehicles is very similar to Copenhagen's relatively new metro system.

www.canadaline.ca/

Construction pics:

www.canadaline.ca/gallery...alleryID=0

www.canadaline.ca/gallery...alleryID=1

 

[Darkstar416]

I think Darkstar's suggestion was too far in the other direction for surface stops.

Perhaps, but still it seems everyone is in agreement that there's too many. Moreover, the cities I cited earlier all had spacing of around 1km between surface stops and it seemed to work just fine. I'm not convinced it wouldn't work here in Toronto.

Moreover, it would be relatively cheap to find out. Simply declare an "experiment" on the 501 Queen and take out 50% of the stops downtown and monitor it for six months. If transit reliability increases, than just leave it the way it is and augment it along the whole line (and others). If there's no noticeable increase, then returning the stops should be considered.