[Skeezix]

DVD/CDs/books aren't a great example of price matching because they are a product that is often heavily discounted and which most Canadians are very comfortable ordering online. Walmart generally doesn't price match its U.S. stores. But I think what you and Bruno are saying is that Walmart much better handles perceptions of its prices, and isn't as clumsy at it as Target was.

I'd forgotten about J. Crew.

LOL at your comment about Saks.

 

[Benito]

Gerrard Square is badly designed, and the parking is atrocious.

I cannot disagree with this, it is sooooooooo true.

 

[TOareaFan]

The Bay/Dundas location is tiny, hence the lack of product selection. Harbour/York would be unlike any store in the GTA in terms of assortment due to the sheer size of the space.

Its really not that much bigger. They have several stores in the 140k s.f. size range now and the bulk of their stores (outside of the new format small stores they have been experimentng with in selective locations) that they have opened in the last 10 - 15 years have been in the 100k+ size range.

 

[Torontovibe]

Walmart Gerrard Square is actually my favourite Walmart in Toronto! No one seems to know about it so it's always empty. It's the one Walmart in Toronto you can go to without having to deal with crowds.

Yes, surprisingly, that Walmart is always dead every time I go there. I always take a look around when I am at the mall but I never see anything there I want to buy. I really don't get the Walmart thing. I find prices better at No Frills and Freshco. As for things like clothing or household items, I don't like what they have to offer, even if it is cheap. I'd rather pay more and get something of better quality. I much preferred the clothing at Zellers and I found they had great deals on sale items. I'd switch that Walmart for a Zellers any day.

As for Target, I have never been to one in Canada. I've been to Target in Chicago and New Jersey but again, I didn't buy anything. I thought the prices were lousy and the merchandise was unappealing, especially the cloths. Who wears that shit? I don't get why Canadians think the American Target stores are so great. The prices I saw were not cheap at all. I think I get better deals in Toronto.

I plan to finally take a trek out to Shoppers World to see what Target is like up here, before they close. I'll wait until their stuff goes on sale before I head out there but obviously, I won't miss it when it closes. Then again, I wouldn't miss Walmart either, if it closed. I actually think it would be a good thing. Now when Honest Ed's closes, I will be pissed!

 

[nfitz]

Everyone i have talked to has complained about Target's high prices.

How many people have you talked to? I'm sure there are newspaper articles. Journalists know the story they want to write, and then go around until someone gives them the right answers.

BTW, one trend I've noticed recently in US Walmarts. Stores that I know, that used to be well stocked, I noticed this year that I couldn't find what I wanted. Empty shelves. When I talked to locals they said the same thing ... and that's because everyone shops online now, so no point in Walmart stocking things ... which is fine until you are on vacation, and you actually need something.

Makes me wonder if the entire big-store thing might go the same way in a few years.

Mind you, Canadian Tire manages to keep shelves full, and make money. Who knows ...

 

[Tuscani01]

Its really not that much bigger. They have several stores in the 140k s.f. size range now and the bulk of their stores (outside of the new format small stores they have been experimentng with in selective locations) that they have opened in the last 10 - 15 years have been in the 100k+ size range.

Huh? no. There are no stores over 100k sq. ft. Leslie.Lakeshore is only 70k and it is one of the largest stores (Bowmanville is our largest store to date at 145k sq. ft, but it includes a Marks Work Wearhouse, and was simply an experiment along with Cambridge and Orleans). Most stores are 60k, large stores are 70k in the GTA. Average store size nationwide is 40k. Edmonton is going to be our largest store by far to date, at 135k square feet, and will be entirely Canadian Tire... no Marks Work Wearhouse within it like Bowmanville.

Confusing CT for another retailer maybe?

 

[TOareaFan]

Huh? no. There are no stores over 100k sq. ft. Leslie.Lakeshore is only 70k and it is one of the largest stores (Bowmanville is our largest store to date at 145k sq. ft, but it includes a Marks Work Wearhouse, and was simply an experiment along with Cambridge and Orleans).

I was responding to a post that suggested a 145k s.f. space leased by Canadian Tire was somehow revolutionary. It clearly is not (also thought there was at least one more store that size in Sudbury)

Most stores are 60k, large stores are 70k in the GTA.

I think there are many stores in the GTA that are larger than 70k

Average store size nationwide is 40k. Edmonton is going to be our largest store by far to date, at 135k square feet, and will be entirely Canadian Tire... no Marks Work Wearhouse within it like Bowmanville.

My reference was to stores built in the last 10 - 15 years....while your 40k number is lower than I would expect....what is the average store size of stores built in , say, the last 15 years.

Confusing CT for another retailer maybe?

Nope.....looking at stores I have seen in my personal and professional capacity, I stand by my statement.

 

[howdy]

The Centerpoint and Hillcrest Mall Target's had lots of people today and the checkouts where full. It was almost like opening day.

 

[Tuscani01]

Nope.....looking at stores I have seen in my personal and professional capacity, I stand by my statement.

I work on the store planning and design team, so I'll stand by my statement and stats.

Sudbury's large store isn't open yet, and is still not a traditional store. It's another one-off.

 

[foodwatcher]

I was responding to a post that suggested a 145k s.f. space leased by Canadian Tire was somehow revolutionary. It clearly is not (also thought there was at least one more store that size in Sudbury)



I think there are many stores in the GTA that are larger than 70k



My reference was to stores built in the last 10 - 15 years....while your 40k number is lower than I would expect....what is the average store size of stores built in , say, the last 15 years.



Nope.....looking at stores I have seen in my personal and professional capacity, I stand by my statement.

When Canadian Tire talks internally about the size of their stores, unlike many other retailers, they refer to the store's selling area and do not include their backrooms, garden centres or auto service centres which is why the individual posting from Canadian Tire is quoting a lower average store size as it is only the selling area of the store. I would also say that the average selling area of a Canadian Tire store is now above 40k feet and that average includes a number of older rural locations (e.g. Port Aux Basques, Mount Forest, Nipigon, etc.) that are very small as well as their small market concept stores (e.g. Athabasca, Sylvan Lake) that would be less than 1/2 the size of the national average in terms of selling area.

 

[PinkLucy]

I've been involved in the grocery industry for years. We also talk about selling space and don't count the back room. Back room throws off the sales per square foot stats

 

[W. K. Lis]

It's not just stores or chains that fail. Sometimes its whole malls that fail.

Abandoned mall that was once the largest in the world

From link:

Once a symbol of American retail, many shopping malls have begun to decline and even close in recent years. Randall Park Mall shut its doors in 2009 after being hit hard by the recession. When the mall opened in 1976 in North Randall, Ohio, the town had a population of just 1,500. Though only two floors high, the mall spanned a whopping two-million square feet and employed 5,000 members of staff. These haunting images show the dust-covered remains of what were once thriving shops and even a movie theatre.

Feeling better?

Back to the business of the thread. Went to the Target at Stockyards. It was busier than I had seen it. Line up at the cashiers. However, did see empty or sparse shelves.

 

[TOareaFan]

When Canadian Tire talks internally about the size of their stores, unlike many other retailers, they refer to the store's selling area and do not include their backrooms, garden centres or auto service centres which is why the individual posting from Canadian Tire is quoting a lower average store size as it is only the selling area of the store.

Back rooms I get......although there is not a lot of that type of space.....but garden centres, auto service centres and the like are selling areas...they generate sales and they do get charged for that space. A key measurement of profitability of any retailer is GROC....and unless those areas are given by landlords for free they form a very important part of that measurement.

 

[Tuscani01]

Back rooms I get......although there is not a lot of that type of space.....but garden centres, auto service centres and the like are selling areas...they generate sales and they do get charged for that space. A key measurement of profitability of any retailer is GROC....and unless those areas are given by landlords for free they form a very important part of that measurement.

Garden centres generate revenue for 3-4 months out of a year, and that is it. They are not included in the total. The auto service centre is also not counted, as their earnings are reported separately internally. As for store size and type, we have less than 30 small market stores, and only 1 express store. The rest are our typical proto plan, which comes in 4 different sizes (A, B, C, D). Majority of these stores are C size, Only a few are actually A size. (Leslie/Lakeshore size) The exceptions are the special one off stores that I have already mentioned, like Bowmanville, Cambridge, Orleans, soon to be Sudbury, and Edmonton. These stores all include a Marks Work Warehouse though, so its not entirely Canadian Tire.

None of the special one-offs are anything different than a normal Canadian Tire though. They are simply the same format, expanded and including a store within a store. The Edmonton Flagship is a completely custom designed store with features and product that you won't find at any other Canadian Tire store. (Skating rink/bike track on the roof, Lego shop, permanent toy department, "Geek Squad" type service for DIY projects etc) If CT were to take over Target's Harbour/York location, I'm willing to bet it would go through the same treatment and be something unlike any other Canadian Tire store in the country.

You are right that there is not a lot of back room space though. There is also an initiative to eliminate back room space by designing the floor in a way that an entire shipment can be placed on the shelves, and not need to be stored in the back. If part of a shipment cannot make it onto the shelf due to capacity, that capacity issue is looked at, and home office either works with the vendor to reduce the minimum order quantity, or increases the amount of space in the planogram to fit the rest of the product.

From our own results statement:

Retail space does not include seasonal outdoor garden centre, auto service bays, warehouse and administrative space.

http://corp.canadiantire.ca/EN/Investors/Documents/2013 Annual Report.pdf

Also helps that Canadian Tire owns nearly 70% of its real estate, so relying on GROC isn't one of our key metrics.

 

[TOareaFan]

Garden centres generate revenue for 3-4 months out of a year, and that is it. They are not included in the total. The auto service centre is also not counted, as their earnings are reported separately internally.

So your internal counting of store size is not really an accurate measure of the actual store size...which is fine for your own internal discussions and goals/needs but it is not accurate for the discussion (which is what I think led into this) about how big Canadian Tire stores are (however you choose to divvy up the space for your own internal measures).

Also helps that Canadian Tire owns nearly 70% of its real estate, so relying on GROC isn't one of our key metrics.

GROC has relevance whether you own the space or not.....there still is a relationship between gross revenues and occupancy costs. In fact GROC may be an important driver in your decision (overall or on an individual basis) of whether to own or not. I would suspect that on stores you own you would expect the ratio of GR to OC to be much higher.

Using one store that I a bit familiar with.....I believe you own the store at Trinity Common in Brampton (or at least you did at onset....not sure if it was ever sold back to RioCan) on a land lease. You still have occupancy costs for that store which, I believe, has a total area of around 100k. CT may call that a 70k store with a 20k auto centre and a 10k garden centre (guessing on that split) but they are still paying for, and operating, a 100k store and the occupancy costs (whether it is store lease or land lease or whatever) still apply to the full 100k store......and that store looks to be a fairly typical store that CT has developed over the last 15 years or so......and if we go back to the jump off point of this back and forth (wether CT would be a prospective replacement for the 145k Target in Harbour Plaza) it is not a great leap from 100k to 145k.

What is far more relevant to the discussion about Harbour Plaza (and, I guess, all urban CT stores) is whether those auto centres and gar den centres are (or can be) part of the store....cause, you are right, if you are talking about only the main retail part of the store ...it is a big leap from 70k to 145k s.f.....then if you toss in the floor area devoted to items that are less relevant in a city centre type store (sell a lot of snowblowers there?) perhaps it is inconceivable for a 145k urban/city centre CT store to exist profitably.