[syn]

Hmmm... make up your mind. Apple is at the top on that chart and you don't consider them the winner. In the 2004 chart, Apple isn't at the top so for the purpose of your argument you like that this chart doesn't consider them the best.

Lenovo didn't score the highest in the service section. Apple's is simply missing two key figures. PC Mag still gave them the top spot that year. Their phone service is on par or better than any I've experienced.

I said:

Actually, that title goes to Lenovo. They've had the best support in the industry for years.

The reason Apple is first on this list is because it doesn't just deal with with support. The first section deals with hardware reliability. Apple scored higher there so they ranked first on the list. They apparently didn't collect enough data to rank Apple on the first two areas of the service section so you can't just arbitrarily assume they're better based on your own personal experience.

I posted some other years to demonstrate that Lenovo has indeed been on top as far as support is concerned for years.

I had an IBM (LeNovo) issued to me @ Critical Path and I agree that they're solid laptops (though friggun hideous) and the IBM support was indeed great. PC Mag's findings seem reasonable by looking at the rest of the list.

Lenovos seems to be the only other laptops the Mac obsessed people I know enjoy using.

 

[syn]

It might just be an anecdote, but I don't think Lenovo will be holding that title much longer. I just bought my laptop from them this year and all my dealings with them have been less than stellar.

- No ability to check the status of my order online.
- 20-30 minute waits on hold to check the status over the phone.
- Twice was told that I would be called back with an answer to my inquiry within 24 hours, and neither time did I actually receive a reply.
- "1-2 weeks to ship" became 5 weeks before I actually received it.
- After I broke it (4 days after receiving it), waits were shorter but I had to deal with a rude employee. I was told that I would be "called back within an hour by a warranty rep", and I actually received that call 13 hours later.

My roommate bought a laptop from IBM/Lenovo 2 years ago, and his experience was consistently the opposite of mine.

I know a lot of people with Lenovos and most who have dealt with them have had very positive experiences. I do know a few who have had problems.

Hopefully it all works out. No company will provide perfect support to every single customer.

 

[MetroMan]

Despite knowing full well that I'm gonna have Windows fans on my ass again and reignite this argument, I have a relevant (to this thread) and very interesting perspective on Vista: from a Microsoft employee I met yesterday.

I had a business dinner with a partner in a company that we're starting up and he brought along a potential partner who works in Microsoft's MSN office here in Toronto.

Finished dinner, I pulled out my MacBook Pro, my partner pulled out his MacBook and the other guy pulled out his Toshiba tablet which was covered with a big MSN butterfly sticker in the middle and big Windows VISTA stickers along the edges.

He turned his tablet screen towards me to show me something and I noticed he didn't have Vista installed. He was running XP! He put his finger to his lips and said.... "Shhhhh". He said he sees the headaches his colleagues at work go through with Vista so he never installed it.

He's not from the Windows Vista department, but it's interesting and very telling to see that even Microsoft's employees can't be convinced to install the latest OS. What a mess...

 

[syn]

Despite knowing full well that I'm gonna have Windows fans on my ass again

I think this nicely illustrates the difference I was alluding to. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not a Windows fan. I'm not a fan of any OS. Why? Because they're OSes. Apple's excellent marketing has managed to convert computer users into 'fans' when all it really is a computer.

Windows is far from perfect, but it has some nice features. The Mac OS is one I like a lot as well, but it's not perfect either.

The problem with OS X 'fans' is that they've lost all objectivity and often let Apple do their thinking for them.

 

[lordmandeep]

the thing is you can't really go into the computer itself in Mac. There really is no desktop and all there is a menu bar...

I want to go into the heart of the computer.

 

[EnviroTO]

the thing is you can't really go into the computer itself in Mac. There really is no desktop and all there is a menu bar...

I want to go into the heart of the computer.

Mac has a console. Being a Unix/Linux guy it is the way I get things done when the GUI is being too simplistic. Most of the directory structure underneath follows Unix/Linux standards. I'm not sure what you mean there is no desktop... I see a background I can put icons on... isn't that the desktop?

 

[MetroMan]

the thing is you can't really go into the computer itself in Mac. There really is no desktop and all there is a menu bar...

I want to go into the heart of the computer.

Like EnvironTO, I don't quite understand what you mean about there being no desktop. In fact, with "Spaces" you can have up to 16 desktops. I use four.

I also don't see what you're trying to say about not really getting into the computer itself.

You can get into the heart of the computer through the UNIX console just like you would with the Windows Command Prompt. You can also dig deep into the file system if that's something you like to do. I'd rather not have to mess with the internals of the OS. It does what I want and is quite flexible enough through the GUI. I prefer to use my time actually doing stuff, rather than tinkering with the OS.

 

[Hydrogen]

There really is no desktop...

Them there computers are so dang small they don't need no fiddly desktop. Ken put'em right yer lap.

I want to go into the heart of the computer.

Sounds romantic.

 

[Brandon716]

Despite knowing full well that I'm gonna have Windows fans on my ass again and reignite this argument, I have a relevant (to this thread) and very interesting perspective on Vista: from a Microsoft employee I met yesterday.

I had a business dinner with a partner in a company that we're starting up and he brought along a potential partner who works in Microsoft's MSN office here in Toronto.

Finished dinner, I pulled out my MacBook Pro, my partner pulled out his MacBook and the other guy pulled out his Toshiba tablet which was covered with a big MSN butterfly sticker in the middle and big Windows VISTA stickers along the edges.

He turned his tablet screen towards me to show me something and I noticed he didn't have Vista installed. He was running XP! He put his finger to his lips and said.... "Shhhhh". He said he sees the headaches his colleagues at work go through with Vista so he never installed it.

He's not from the Windows Vista department, but it's interesting and very telling to see that even Microsoft's employees can't be convinced to install the latest OS. What a mess...

To be honest, in the world of computer services, you'd be amazed at how the so-called "techies" use equipment. Its likely that when you call a Dell technician in India they may be using a 3rd party brand of equipment that is far from anything Dell, and they are relying solely on diagrams and web site walk-through troubleshooting tools.

Regardless of location, I can tell you first hand that many HP printer tech support people haven't used half the actual printers they support. They rely on training courses looking at powerpoint presentations then gathering information from people they've helped over the phone, plus extensive online documentation and workflows to diagnose problems.

Do they actually have the equipment in front of them? Not a chance... That's why technical support can be so tedious.

It highly depends on the company, but its been my experience. At least when I worked for an HP contract they advised us to work on new HP systems they purchased. LOL

 

[lordmandeep]

no Like if I want to go into my computer and Program files, you know what I saw!!!!

I saw Icons, not folders containing the files. That is something I really like in the XP.

I like to go into the depths of the computer, get rid of stuff I don't need. However even in PC, Vista is becoming more like a Mac. I bet in 10 years, computers will just be stupid sliding menu bars.

 

[MetroMan]

^ brother, you obviously have never used a Mac for more than 2 minutes at an Apple store. No offense to you, just an observation of the obvious.

OS X has a file system with folders just like Windows and just like Linux.

Windows has the Explorer, OS X has the Finder. Each one allows you to look deep into the file system.

Because you don't see a "My Computer" on the desktop doesn't mean that you can't get into the file system. The intention is to keep the desktop clean and unconfusing. That intention is clear in measures such as where the downloaded files go. Whenever you download a file, it pops into the "Dock" (that collection of icons at the bottom), not accumulating on the desktop. It's then accessible by hitting the download folder. The files will fan out like you see here...

Your perception of the Mac is the one I've been describing here. People know very little, yet make all kinds of criticisms based on erroneous presumptions. This is why when people let go of what they learned with Windows, sit at a Mac and allow themselves to be absorbed by the intuitive OS X, many reach the conclusion: "Once you go Mac, you don't go back".

... and they were right.

 

[EnviroTO]

no Like if I want to go into my computer and Program files, you know what I saw!!!!

I saw Icons, not folders containing the files. That is something I really like in the XP.

I like to go into the depths of the computer, get rid of stuff I don't need. However even in PC, Vista is becoming more like a Mac. I bet in 10 years, computers will just be stupid sliding menu bars.

The point of a GUI is to make things simpler. That is why Windows defaults to hiding system files and by default hides folders that would be dangerous for someone to manipulate. There are ways to see those files in Windows and Mac though. With Linux you can actually see the computer code which is even more than you can see with Windows.

 

[Dan416]

I typed out a reply, and then accidentally hit "back" and lost it. Ah well, the gist was that Vista is almost as stable as XP. Vista came with my HP laptop, circa Q4 2007. I haven't really had any problems with Vista itself. And SP1 should resolve the minor issues I've had.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

My 12 month old, $4K Dell XPS system with Vista won't accept Vista's SP1 because it doesn't play nice with a driver in my system somewhere. I've updated every driver I can think of but it won't install. It seems to be a major problem right now for people trying to update their O/S, me included. I've been pulling my hair out for 5 days trying to figure this friggen thing out.

Yet another embarrassing revelation for Windows Vista.

 

[Edward Skira]

Updating drivers????

Mac guy's response