innsertnamehere
Superstar
"metro" might be the better term in this case.
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Steve X
Senior Member
If the two LRTs are identical, you would be right. Yes they should run more trains, especially in the subway portion. It's not really that flawed. Line 5 will operate with ATO at 80 km/h for two thirds of the line while Line 6 will operate at 50-60 km/h. The running time for Line 5 is around 40-45 minutes while Line 6 is around 30-35 minutes. 18 vs 15 trains make sense. Plus current bus ridership on the surface portion of Line 5 is lower than Line 6.
They did say the improvements won't happen if the LRT doesn't open in 2021.
You'll be surprise how busy the 85 is along Line 4 in peak hours. Subway isn't the solution to everything.
TRONto
Active Member
Only reason this needs to be said was he called the Scarborough LRT proposal a streetcar and he said it was terrible because it was not a subway.
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TransitBart
Senior Member
I did the same math. 17 seems absurd.
Amare
Senior Member
They can run the trains at 100km/h underground if they want for all we care, that doesnt make a lick of difference if the average speed of the line is still below the Bloor-Danforth Line. There's clearly something wrong if you're running 44+ trains on Line 2 vs 18 trains on Line 5. And they'll find that out the hard way if they stick to that plan by opening day (whenever that day will be).
Steve X
Senior Member
I believe planned service is 5-6 minutes headway in rush hour. Could be up to 10 minutes at night if there's no money. This offers well enough capacity for opening day.
The math works out easily. Currently the # of buses per hour operated in AM peak are as follows:
Mt Dennis - Keelesdale: 32A/D - 13
Keelesdale - Cedarvale: 32A/C/D - 23
Cedarvale - Eglinton: 32A/C - 18
Eglinton - Laird: 34A/C+51+54A/B+56A - 15+13+3+3= 34
Laird - Sunnybrook Park: 34A/C+51+54A/B = 31
Sunnybrook Park- Science Centre: 34A/C - 15
Science Centre - Kennedy: 34A - 10
Assume 12 trains per hour on Line 5.
Capacity: bus: 51, LRV: 2*165
Line 5 capacity with 18 trains = 3,960 ppdph
Busiest: Eglinton - Laird bus capacity with 34 buses = 1,734 ppdph
Least used: Science Centre - Kennedy with 10 buses = 510 ppdph
With 18 trains, there is more than twice the capacity of the current surface bus network on day one. The busiest section will see the least new transfers to the Line as the current bus network feeds into Eglinton. The question is where are these riders coming from? Unlike Ottawa, TTC will have plenty of trains to spare.
Coolstar
Senior Member
But that stems from the surface section of the line. The underground portion has farther stop spacing compared to Line 2.
Amare
Senior Member
Very good analysis there, nice work.
Although there will be double the capacity from the current service provided, they really have to take into account the amount of riders who will be diverting to Eglinton instead of running down to the Bloor-Danforth line. I have my doubts that they're accurately projecting just how many riders will change their commute patterns.
Peak run times of 5-6 mins is also a bit odd as well. Part of me thinks that the TTC is trying to reduce the potential massive bottle neck at Yonge and Eglinton because they know its going to be a massive problem spot, but obviously they would never admit to that. So by reducing the amount of trains per hour flowing into Eglinton on Line 5, they would reduce the amount of riders being dumped onto the Yonge line which is jammed as soon as trains hit Eglinton at peak times.
Sure while this is true, the surface portion of the line still slows the line down to the point that the overall average speed is still slower than the Bloor-Danforth line. Even with trains short-turning at Laird, the number of trains being run along the line just doesn't add up at all. If the number was something around 22-24 than I could make sense of it. But having 17-18 running is just questionable at best.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Even I'm sceptical of those numbers for Sheppard long term. I was surveying the Sheppard subway Wednesday for peak hour ridership numbers, and I was surprised to see almost every train between 4:30 and 5:45 completely full — to the point in which people were left behind, and this was on a Wednesday in December. It's only a matter of time with all the development up there that they'll need to add a 5th train to serve during the peak hours. Sheppard can get by with 3 during the late nights, and 4 during midday (for frequency's sake), but it would never be able to do more than that during the off-peak sections. They can certainly do 5 trains, we have 6 and the off day that 2 trains aren't available won't be the end of the world for everyone.
You won't see a day when Line 6 operates faster than 50km/h, especially with all the intersections on Finch.
Comparing a bus that comes every 15 minutes to a subway that comes every 5 is absurd, especially when that subway train is crush-loaded.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Line 6 will likely have a speed limit of 60km/h along it, though it's total average speed will be closer to 25km/h. It's slower running environment means you need more trains for the same capacity.
Line 5 will have half of it's trains turning around at Laird, which will increase capacity and frequency on the underground portion, which is where most transfers will be occurring. Other than Science Centre, I imagine most passengers east of that will be walk on passengers.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that peak hour service opening day is planned to be something like 3 minutes in the central section and 6 minutes on the surface section.
Line 5 will have half of it's trains turning around at Laird, which will increase capacity and frequency on the underground portion, which is where most transfers will be occurring. Other than Science Centre, I imagine most passengers east of that will be walk on passengers.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that peak hour service opening day is planned to be something like 3 minutes in the central section and 6 minutes on the surface section.
smallspy
Senior Member
He's not comparing them. His point is that, despite the subway running underneath it, there's still a need for a bus servicing the areas in between the stations. And that part of the 84 does pretty good in that regard.
Dan
Islington Express Bus
Active Member
So it looks like Lawrence between Leslie and Don Mills will lose bus service. That doesn't seem like a great idea to me.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
162 Lawrence Donway would still be serving that stretch of Lawrence.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Needs a Legalize & English translator at Queen's Park.
salsa
Senior Member
This segment is also served by 162 Lawrence-Donway, which is not affected by the plans for Line 5.