Where? At Mt. Dennis? Yeah it's right on the Georgetown corridor. Hence why I think it would make a good terminal station. There would be a lot of transfer options.
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Where? At Mt. Dennis? Yeah it's right on the Georgetown corridor. Hence why I think it would make a good terminal station. There would be a lot of transfer options.
BurlOak
Senior Member
If Eglinton is to be elevated through Scarborough, it must also go over the DVP. I also thought it would be nice to keep the Leslie Station, or at least keep the option open for when (if) the CPR line gets GO service.
So this is what I am thinking.
1. Just east of Laird Station, the line needs to continue roughly horizontally, instead of diving to go below the Don River West Branch.
2. At about 943 Eglinton Avenue East, the TBM launch site will be built. The ramps to this property may need to be closed, either temporarily or permanently, but access can also be obtained from Vanderhoof Avenue to the South. The horizontal alignment would remain roughly horizontal, maybe a slight shift in plan away from Eglinton. This would also become the Portal location where the line switches to being at grade.
3. The line would stay roughly horizontal and then slope down at-grade along the valley slope. The line would cross the Don River West Branch on a separate bridge – the height above water probably a bit higher than the road bridge.
4. A new semi-outdoor, at-grade (partially elevated) station can be located at Leslie. This may be optional at this time. It would also serve a future GO station along the adjacent CPR line.
5. The line cuts through the CPR embankment using twin tunnels, constructed using jack and bore. The line is rising, following the grade of Eglinton.
6. To keep the line closer to Eglinton, the ramps to Celestica are reconfigured to a Diamond interchange – eliminating the loop ramp. A left turn would be needed to go under, or come from under, the bridge. The horizontal alignment would have to be moved marginally farther away from Eglinton.
7. About 300m west of Don Mills, the line enters a portal and the entire area is built using cut-and-cover. Cross over tracks can easily be located in this area.
8. The Don Mills station is redesigned completely. First, both Eglinton and DRL are single platform. Next, the Stations are shifted to the South and West and the bus station is also switched to this corner. The mezzanine level is directly at grade, located between 0 and 4m below ground. The ECLRT is located about 5m to 11m below grade, while the DRL is located about 12 to 19m below grade. Since the station is not under the roadway, this mezzanine will not interfere with utilities under Eglinton or Don Mills. There are pedestrian tunnels under both Don Mills and Eglinton. The DRL is accessed by elevator/stairs in the mezzanine near the bus station, and also from the pedestrian tunnels, both south and north of the platform. The ECLRT platform is accessed from the same mezzanine, and also from below from a deeper tunnel under Eglinton and under the ECLRT platform. The goal is to reduce the depth of the station to have less of a climb to go over DVP.
9. The line rises at 4.5% after passing the station. The portal would be located about 200m east of the station. The Gervais Drive intersection would have to be move about 25m closer to Don Mills. The line would be immediately to the south side of Eglinton.
10. For about 200m, the line runs parallel to Ferrand Drive. The line continues to climb at 4.5%. In this area, the line has left the portal and is below grade, at grade, and above grade, but not high enough to pass under it. Just before the DVP on ramp, the elevation of the line is adequate for the ramp to pass under this elevated portion. Eglinton Avenue may have to be shifted marginally to the north (instead of widening on both sides if a median portal was used), or Ferrand could be switched to a one-way road.
11. Don Mills starts to slope down, but the line must continue to rise to go over the DVP.
So this is what I am thinking.
1. Just east of Laird Station, the line needs to continue roughly horizontally, instead of diving to go below the Don River West Branch.
2. At about 943 Eglinton Avenue East, the TBM launch site will be built. The ramps to this property may need to be closed, either temporarily or permanently, but access can also be obtained from Vanderhoof Avenue to the South. The horizontal alignment would remain roughly horizontal, maybe a slight shift in plan away from Eglinton. This would also become the Portal location where the line switches to being at grade.
3. The line would stay roughly horizontal and then slope down at-grade along the valley slope. The line would cross the Don River West Branch on a separate bridge – the height above water probably a bit higher than the road bridge.
4. A new semi-outdoor, at-grade (partially elevated) station can be located at Leslie. This may be optional at this time. It would also serve a future GO station along the adjacent CPR line.
5. The line cuts through the CPR embankment using twin tunnels, constructed using jack and bore. The line is rising, following the grade of Eglinton.
6. To keep the line closer to Eglinton, the ramps to Celestica are reconfigured to a Diamond interchange – eliminating the loop ramp. A left turn would be needed to go under, or come from under, the bridge. The horizontal alignment would have to be moved marginally farther away from Eglinton.
7. About 300m west of Don Mills, the line enters a portal and the entire area is built using cut-and-cover. Cross over tracks can easily be located in this area.
8. The Don Mills station is redesigned completely. First, both Eglinton and DRL are single platform. Next, the Stations are shifted to the South and West and the bus station is also switched to this corner. The mezzanine level is directly at grade, located between 0 and 4m below ground. The ECLRT is located about 5m to 11m below grade, while the DRL is located about 12 to 19m below grade. Since the station is not under the roadway, this mezzanine will not interfere with utilities under Eglinton or Don Mills. There are pedestrian tunnels under both Don Mills and Eglinton. The DRL is accessed by elevator/stairs in the mezzanine near the bus station, and also from the pedestrian tunnels, both south and north of the platform. The ECLRT platform is accessed from the same mezzanine, and also from below from a deeper tunnel under Eglinton and under the ECLRT platform. The goal is to reduce the depth of the station to have less of a climb to go over DVP.
9. The line rises at 4.5% after passing the station. The portal would be located about 200m east of the station. The Gervais Drive intersection would have to be move about 25m closer to Don Mills. The line would be immediately to the south side of Eglinton.
10. For about 200m, the line runs parallel to Ferrand Drive. The line continues to climb at 4.5%. In this area, the line has left the portal and is below grade, at grade, and above grade, but not high enough to pass under it. Just before the DVP on ramp, the elevation of the line is adequate for the ramp to pass under this elevated portion. Eglinton Avenue may have to be shifted marginally to the north (instead of widening on both sides if a median portal was used), or Ferrand could be switched to a one-way road.
11. Don Mills starts to slope down, but the line must continue to rise to go over the DVP.
Attachments
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The Don Mills Station should be redesigned to include a rough-in for the Downtown Relief Line/Don Mills LRT. At the moment, it will mean they will have to dig up the area AGAIN, when (not if) construction for the DRL starts.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Maybe start the DRL at the same time!
Yup. I think a Lower Queen type of deal would certainly be warranted here. That way when they do build the DRL, the only changes to Science Centre station would be cosmetic (putting in the tiles, putting in the tracks), and they could do a "plug in" with the track further south, much like what they will do when they extend Sheppard further west or Yonge further north.
Also, if they do rough the station in, it would possibly provide another reason to extend the DRL up to Eglinton: "well, the roughed-in station is already there, might as well use it". How many times have we heard that rationale for why we should use Queen for the DRL alignment through downtown? (granted though with Queen, the platform was built for streetcars, so it's borderline useless for a subway, but still).
The "it's already there, might as well use it" argument when it comes to transit infrastructure is a pretty powerful one, especially within the general public.
nfitz
Superstar
Build the box for a second set of platforms, that are left under-utilized for 70+ years, will likely ever be used for trains, and if they ever are, are so grossly inadequate that they'll have to spend just as much at they would have had to anyways, to widen the station?
TTC has been tossing around plans for an Eglinton subway station on Don Mills for almost 50 years already. And we still don't know where it's going to go.
Perhaps making sure they leave space for a future platform would be sensible (the same way they have left space for a future LRT underground station at Steeles West station) - but I don't see the need for anything else until the DRL design is advanced. And if is advanced significantly, they can issue a change order to build some connecting tunnels - the same way they are issuing one now at Finch West station to connect to the underground LRT platforms.
Doing anything more at this point would be fiscally irresponsible.
I'm not saying literally build a Lower Queen streetcar platform, but build a roughed-in subway platform. And I don't think it'll take 70+ years to get the DRL up to Eglinton. 25, max.
Realistically, there are very few viable options for the DRL to bisect Eglinton other than at Don Mills, in sharp contrast to the multitude of options going through downtown. I see it as a 'pay me now, pay me later' thing. We know the DRL is going to end up there, so accommodate for it now so that you don't have to rip the station apart in 15-25 years to build it in.
It's a very similar rationale for why they built Sheppard-Yonge as a 3 platform station. They could have just as easily put in 1 centre platform and called it a day. Or why the Prince Edward Viaduct was over-designed in order to carry a lower deck. Sometimes spending a little bit more in the short term can save a lot of headache (and money) in the long term.
khris
Senior Member
Has construction started on this line at any point along it yet?
Just the launch shaft around Black Creek.
khris
Senior Member
Thanks!
nfitz
Superstar
What is Lower Queen over than a roughed-in streetcar platform?
And I don't think those that built Lower Queen thought it would be 25 years, let alone 70+. What's the net present value of something 25 years in the future? Very little.
We have no idea when it would get there ... even if a DRL is built, the piece to Eglinton is likely not going to be Phase 1. But more importantly where would it get built? Likely Eglinton and Don Mills. And yet it's a pretty desolate spot. But what elevation? Centre of road? East of road? West of road? Perhaps it would elevated? Perhaps it would be on the surface?
Which hardly seems like a wise decision so far. But a little different. Leaving the space for a future 3rd platform in an existing station is one thing. Personally, I think the work they did to prepare for a future 2nd and 3rd platform on the YUS line at Sheppard-Yonge is far more valuable than that third platform on the Sheppard line.
Another example of a colossal failure. It was overdesigned in anticipation of a subway being built there in the short term. Surely if someone had told R.C. Harris when they were designing it, that it would be 55 years until there was a subway there, he too would have agreed that the huge extra expenditure spent during WWI wasn't wise. The present value of something 50 years in the future is near zero. And even then, they only used the Don Rivers span that they included the lower deck in. Other sections of the lower deck remain unused, a century later.
Agreed. But no one would ever advocate spending money now, to save a bit 50 years from now (if ever).
BurlOak
Senior Member
There are certain critical times when the politicians need to make a decision.
Do we build the DRL up to Eglinton in the next 15 or 20 years or not?
If the answer is yes, then design and build (at least rough-in) the station now (actually its still probably 4 to 6 years before the station actually gets built).
If the answer is no, then do not built it. But then we commit to no DRL to Eglinton and also risk the very real posibility that the DRL will not be built at all since the Boroughs would not want to support a line that does not go north of Danforth.
Rainforest
Senior Member
DRL is unlikely to be on surface (blocking all Don Mills crossings) or elevated in that section. It will almost certainly be underground.
The depth, and the position with respect of the centre of the road, will be adjusted to connect to the station.
Note that if the spot is pretty desolate now, but will be developed during the next 20 - 25 years, then building the DRL station at that time will be a lot more expensive then if the station box is built now.
nfitz
Superstar
If it really takes 20-25 years before we are building a DRL station, it doesn't matter how much it will cost then, the net present value of the future cost is bound to be far less than what would be wasted building a box now.
Did everyone here flunk economics or something?
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The Finch West Station box on the Spadina extension is to be located north of Finch Avenue West. It will include a knockout panel at the south end of the station box for the future connection to the Finch West LRT. However, it looks like they will be digging up Finch Avenue West when it comes time to put in the underground connection for the LRT, even though the opening of the Spadina extension and the Finch West LRT are only four years apart. The underground LRT station will be over the HRT subway tunnels.
Likely, they will build the Don Mills station deep enough so that the future DRL station will also be over the Eglinton LRT tunnels. They'll need to provide knock-out panels to provide connections.
However, I think to avoid having to dig up the road again in both cases, they should at least build all the station boxes at the same time at both Finch West & Keele and at Don Mills & Eglinton East, leaving the temporary unused stations as rough-in.
Likely, they will build the Don Mills station deep enough so that the future DRL station will also be over the Eglinton LRT tunnels. They'll need to provide knock-out panels to provide connections.
However, I think to avoid having to dig up the road again in both cases, they should at least build all the station boxes at the same time at both Finch West & Keele and at Don Mills & Eglinton East, leaving the temporary unused stations as rough-in.