[pman]

The enthusiasm for all these new condos reminds me of the hype associated with the building of St. James Town ("The All-Electric City Within a City!"). It was billed as a brave new upscale development for sophisticated young professionals, but turned into something radically different in about the same time it took Petula Clark to trill through "Downtown". Not that I'm against either intensification or the disappearance of our rich stock of surface parking lots in the core. But I do wonder what a lot of these buildings are going to be like in 40 years.

 

[jetsbackincanada]

????????????????????????

If it's not going too far off topic, what areas do you think have benefited/suffered from the highrise construction? I can certainly see how the intensification has brought increased foot traffic and gentrification to previously downtrodden neighbourhoods, but in general I think condo planning in this city is not well done. There seem to be very low architectural standards and very little thought into where they're placed. Cityplace IMO is a prime example of this.

So much complaining about all these new developments ..... architecture is not the problem, the quality/cost relationship of materials is the problem....Some one on one of these threads said , " A great Art Deco, skyscraper will be built in the next couple years", I almost shot coffee thru my nose...that will never happen...I SAID NEVER!!
Its not that architects cant design em, I'm certain many would love to!!, But the supply of quality materials, and their cost makes this impossible.....To use gilded interiors, oak, marble and the rest would be SOOOOOOO expensive, not to mention the skilled laborers it would take, and the time they would cost...NEVER!!!! Precast and assembly by numbers is the way of the day, and it will never go back. Stone workers are less common than Gay Christians, and I've seen more Dodo birds lately than true deco skyscrapers. To do Deco, in a house, is expensive... 900 feet of it...no way...High end, for that style will be 1 St Thomas, and Uptown will be the new norm!?
So take this into account before you slam all new design.....they are limited to what they can work with.... a kitchen is only as good as it's ingredients, microwaves, freezers, and canned goods, will affect your quality, no matter what name is on the door. Even todays high end Trumps and Four Seasons, are glass, and spandrel....where's all this great design elsewhere????
Have you seen the crap they are putting up in Dubai, and elsewhere?
American city's and developers, cant even afford/ construct/ sell one city place tower....all the negativity????,
If you like skyscrapers and construction, you should know that we are lucky to have this much going on!!! Haters can suck eggs, and go live in Eden Vale, Roseville, or Maple Plain, or any other cul de sac they choose...if you like urbanity, and density, then embrace what's going on here, know that it's amazing, and further making Toronto, one of the most exciting places to live anywhere.
Figure out what Chrysler would cost to build today. and complain about that!!!! Coz, if they did, your 70 ft sq apt, would cost you millions$$$$$ The state of the global economy is in disarray, Toronto is still marching on unabated,and yet the hater anthem still rings out!?
Just be thankful, our great city ain't decaying, like many American urban centers?! Cityplace a blight!? Those rail yards were a blight, so seriously ease up people, and enjoy our emergence on the worlds stage.

PS.... Not all complaints are "Haters", some are very vaild, it just gets old, the whining and pining, get over it move on! I see what Minneapolis is doing by comparison???? A dozen 4 story condos, Ive seen half of them turned into apts, cause there's so little urban fabric, street life or pedestrian traffic. Anytime you add 45 storeys, onto a block , you create a better local business model, instead of taking the car to Wal Mart, you take the elevator to the second floor!!!!!

 

[lovarkitec]

So much complaining about all these new developments ..... architecture is not the problem, the quality/cost relationship of materials is the problem....Some one on one of these threads said , " A great Art Deco, skyscraper will be built in the next couple years", I almost shot coffee thru my nose...that will never happen...I SAID NEVER!!
Its not that architects cant design em, I'm certain many would love to!!, But the supply of quality materials, and their cost makes this impossible.....To use gilded interiors, oak, marble and the rest would be SOOOOOOO expensive, not to mention the skilled laborers it would take, and the time they would cost...NEVER!!!! Precast and assembly by numbers is the way of the day, and it will never go back. Stone workers are less common than Gay Christians, and I've seen more Dodo birds lately than true deco skyscrapers. To do Deco, in a house, is expensive... 900 feet of it...no way...High end, for that style will be 1 St Thomas, and Uptown will be the new norm!?
So take this into account before you slam all new design.....they are limited to what they can work with.... a kitchen is only as good as it's ingredients, microwaves, freezers, and canned goods, will affect your quality, no matter what name is on the door. Even todays high end Trumps and Four Seasons, are glass, and spandrel....where's all this great design elsewhere????
Have you seen the crap they are putting up in Dubai, and elsewhere?
American city's and developers, cant even afford/ construct/ sell one city place tower....all the negativity????,
If you like skyscrapers and construction, you should know that we are lucky to have this much going on!!! Haters can suck eggs, and go live in Eden Vale, Roseville, or Maple Plain, or any other cul de sac they choose...if you like urbanity, and density, then embrace what's going on here, know that it's amazing, and further making Toronto, one of the most exciting places to live anywhere.
Figure out what Chrysler would cost to build today. and complain about that!!!! Coz, if they did, your 70 ft sq apt, would cost you millions$$$$$ The state of the global economy is in disarray, Toronto is still marching on unabated,and yet the hater anthem still rings out!?
Just be thankful, our great city ain't decaying, like many American urban centers?! Cityplace a blight!? Those rail yards were a blight, so seriously ease up people, and enjoy our emergence on the worlds stage.

PS.... Not all complaints are "Haters", some are very vaild, it just gets old, the whining and pining, get over it move on! I see what Minneapolis is doing by comparison???? A dozen 4 story condos, Ive seen half of them turned into apts, cause there's so little urban fabric, street life or pedestrian traffic. Anytime you add 45 storeys, onto a block , you create a better local business model, instead of taking the car to Wal Mart, you take the elevator to the second floor!!!!!

sweet.....i agree with every word. tour any US city right now and you will so glad to come home....

 

[agoraflaneur]

Although I don't typically agree with Jets or other commenters that refer to people as "haters," I would have to agree that many of his points are valid. Of course we would all like to see the quality increase, and the developers stop cutting corners. Buildings like Uptown could have shone. Developments like Cityplace could be better executed with a richer streetlife and retail presence. However, when we look at the 1960s through to the 1990s, buildings in Toronto were hardly better quality than what is happening today. Glass, spandrel, and precast are just what people can build. Sure, capitalism has its drawbacks - the developers would like to profit, and aesthetics takes a hit - but the buyers have some culpability here, too (though many are foreign investors who are used to what they see). And the point that we should take something over nothing is well put - Toronto is not dense enough (I know the cul-de-sac lakeside dwellers actually hate large buildings, but compared even to Vancouver our density is severely lacking). Very few towers today will kill the city's vibrancy. The only thing I worry about really is muting the vibe of places like Queen West. There should be a Montreal-style - or Parisian/London style - renaissance in Toronto to instill a livable and independent area that can sustain its (good) stock of old buildings that will give Toronto what character it currently musters. And as for the comparisons of St. James town - that is why Toronto needs good public services. If we were to have a more comprehensive approach to the public realm, rich people would want to live downtown (as they already do). More things like the John street revitalization, more parks like Sherbourne Common, more interesting parkettes and better attention to urban design - these things will ensure the viability and desirability of Toronto for decades to come, regardless of the number of towers. Oh - did I mention a DRL!!! But, overall, let's take the jobs and economic well being that come with this development, embrace it and work to change some things.

 

[Softee]

compared even to Vancouver our density is severely lacking

In the central city, Toronto is more dense than Vancouver by a considerable margin.

 

[UD2]

what's with the mine is bigger than yours contest boys?

 

[agoraflaneur]

It isn't a question of bigger is better, though for some it might be.

What I am referring to is the quality of density. Toronto is spotty while Vancouver gyrates around a single core. So, yes, overall density is greater in Toronto by a large margin - but that is only because the area is so much larger!

The reason that increased density is beneficial to Toronto is that it fills in the gaping scars left on the cityscape. Whether the abhorrent misuse of land as paved graveyard or the decaying remains of a once large-scale industrial operation - or for that matter the failed ghetto-projects of Alexandra Park, Regent Park, etc. - Toronto's core scatters in a disjointed array.

While this also allows for interesting fusions and above all new possibilities for urban living - the very thing that makes Toronto exciting and contemporary - it also poses difficulties in providing the amenities of urban living in a more woven and polished fashion. Thus my insistence on low scale neighbourhoods (say 6-8 stories or less depending) and high quality parks in many places to preserve the uniqueness of the city.

Density should be pointed and well chosen in terms of location - and the nice thing is that there are many highly appropriate locations available in the city. What should follow is an investment into the amenities we deserve and in fact require for attracting talent to Toronto.

Please be a more considerate reader next time.

 

[jetsbackincanada]

Density..

..as much as possible, to make a car less necessary, to reverse urban sprawl, to emphasize a working model, for the 21st century city...
Why can't we let Toronto grow into the city of the future....from a distance, she seems to be taking a leading role in reshaping the classic North American urban model , taking cues from both Asian city's , European and New York, (her biggest influence).
Toronto, is a great canvas , in an even greater country, a city full of new beginnings and economic potential. Canada's credit, in all corners of the world, is unrivaled, our track record of honesty, and reliability, hasn't gone unnoticed. Thus she seems a safe harbor for investing in these troubled times! What that says about Canada, is so amazing, and should make you all so PROUD!!!
Cityplace is beautiful from the lake, and the street fabric ALWAYS takes time! It is an experiment with the fabric of a city, a chance to see, what can be done......How can so many not see this great vision?? In time, retail and street life , will follow the 1 000's who will be living there. What a great place to open a bar! With 8 000 people living above you!! The way it ties the lake to the core, Bremner, will soon be a very active place, two sports stadia, and how many residents?? The comparisons to St Jamestown, are comical, I challenge any one who makes these claims to look at a unit in each!!
Seriously, will we see Bremner as a failure in 40 years? Will it shift into low income housing? Not likely, Not with that access, lake view and the citys demand for upkeep. Will they likely be middle class housing??? Yes , Exactly?? I say bravo 45th floor housing for a young family, that can walk to the lake , catch a Jays game.
Last, and of much importance, the more people you stuff into the urban core, the greater the local tax base, the safer the streets, the better the schools, the newer the bridges, and parks, and side walks, and trees, and fountains, and ........you could go on, and also the demand would increase for more public transit, and the funding can be more local than ever, and be a a complete cross section, of wealthy, and middle class, living together...Dammm I miss CANADA.

 

[yyzer]

Toronto, is a great canvas , in an even greater country, a city full of new beginnings and economic potential.

+1

 

[ttk77]

So much complaining about all these new developments ..... architecture is not the problem, the quality/cost relationship of materials is the problem....Some one on one of these threads said , " A great Art Deco, skyscraper will be built in the next couple years", I almost shot coffee thru my nose...that will never happen...I SAID NEVER!!
Its not that architects cant design em, I'm certain many would love to!!, But the supply of quality materials, and their cost makes this impossible.....To use gilded interiors, oak, marble and the rest would be SOOOOOOO expensive, not to mention the skilled laborers it would take, and the time they would cost...NEVER!!!! Precast and assembly by numbers is the way of the day, and it will never go back. Stone workers are less common than Gay Christians, and I've seen more Dodo birds lately than true deco skyscrapers. To do Deco, in a house, is expensive... 900 feet of it...no way...High end, for that style will be 1 St Thomas, and Uptown will be the new norm!?
So take this into account before you slam all new design.....they are limited to what they can work with.... a kitchen is only as good as it's ingredients, microwaves, freezers, and canned goods, will affect your quality, no matter what name is on the door. Even todays high end Trumps and Four Seasons, are glass, and spandrel....where's all this great design elsewhere????
Have you seen the crap they are putting up in Dubai, and elsewhere?
American city's and developers, cant even afford/ construct/ sell one city place tower....all the negativity????,
If you like skyscrapers and construction, you should know that we are lucky to have this much going on!!! Haters can suck eggs, and go live in Eden Vale, Roseville, or Maple Plain, or any other cul de sac they choose...if you like urbanity, and density, then embrace what's going on here, know that it's amazing, and further making Toronto, one of the most exciting places to live anywhere.
Figure out what Chrysler would cost to build today. and complain about that!!!! Coz, if they did, your 70 ft sq apt, would cost you millions$$$$$ The state of the global economy is in disarray, Toronto is still marching on unabated,and yet the hater anthem still rings out!?
Just be thankful, our great city ain't decaying, like many American urban centers?! Cityplace a blight!? Those rail yards were a blight, so seriously ease up people, and enjoy our emergence on the worlds stage.

PS.... Not all complaints are "Haters", some are very vaild, it just gets old, the whining and pining, get over it move on! I see what Minneapolis is doing by comparison???? A dozen 4 story condos, Ive seen half of them turned into apts, cause there's so little urban fabric, street life or pedestrian traffic. Anytime you add 45 storeys, onto a block , you create a better local business model, instead of taking the car to Wal Mart, you take the elevator to the second floor!!!!!

Wow....lots of rage there. You read an awful lot into my post that wasn't there. I live in one of those glass and concrete, pre-cast monoliths downtown and I'm not a "hater", whatever that is. Just because our core isn't a crumbling, crime-ridden cesspool like many american downtown areas though, it doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to have criticisms about where we're going. You're right, Cityplace is not St Jamestown, though it does have more in common with it than with any other typical Toronto neighbourhood. Not only is the architecture boring (and I'm not complaining about the glass and pre-cast - you can do very nice things with these, but the Cityplace developers did not), but there is zero street life or neighbourhood feel, and the condo density there is so high that there isn't room to build any of that in later. To me it feels more like a vertical suburb than an integrated Toronto neighbourhood - you have to leave it to do anything other than see a ball game or eat some wings. To build a neighbourhood properly you need to do it from the street up. The more densely residential it's going to be up top the more street level retail and entertainment you need build down below, right from the beginning.

It's fine to love tall buildings, and I certainly have no problem with them, but we have to make sure they're planned to be sustainable in the long term before we let them go up. Cityplace is an example of planning gone wrong. If you want an example of how to do it right just go a few blocks east to York st and Mapleleaf Square.

 

[old boy]

ttk77, you are saying what others have said - a shame that Cityplace is less than the sum of it's parts. That this group assumed control of so much blank slate downtown, it's not churlish at all to be disappointed in what we see today.

 

[caltrane74]

I think Cityplace will evolve over time, there is more than enough to work with that it can become a very successful community in the future.

 

[Edward]

The area around CityPlace isn't finished yet. I think its too early to complain about it.

 

[jetsbackincanada]

Wow....lots of rage there. You read an awful lot into my post that wasn't there. I live in one of those glass and concrete, pre-cast monoliths downtown and I'm not a "hater", whatever that is. Just because our core isn't a crumbling, crime-ridden cesspool like many american downtown areas though, it doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to have criticisms about where we're going. You're right, Cityplace is not St Jamestown, though it does have more in common with it than with any other typical Toronto neighbourhood. Not only is the architecture boring (and I'm not complaining about the glass and pre-cast - you can do very nice things with these, but the Cityplace developers did not), but there is zero street life or neighbourhood feel, and the condo density there is so high that there isn't room to build any of that in later. To me it feels more like a vertical suburb than an integrated Toronto neighbourhood - you have to leave it to do anything other than see a ball game or eat some wings. To build a neighbourhood properly you need to do it from the street up. The more densely residential it's going to be up top the more street level retail and entertainment you need build down below, right from the beginning.

It's fine to love tall buildings, and I certainly have no problem with them, but we have to make sure they're planned to be sustainable in the long term before we let them go up. Cityplace is an example of planning gone wrong. If you want an example of how to do it right just go a few blocks east to York st and Mapleleaf Square.

That certainly wasn't all aimed at you, or your post TTK77, I apologize if it felt that way, it was more a response to months of grumbling, and short sighted monday quarterbacking, people comparing todays construction with other eras, your post was fine, I just love Toronto, and Canada and feel obligated to defend her, cause she might not be perfect, but its the best boat afloat right now, and the folks on this forum need to be reminded of that..... as for City place, the various ideas for it, that have beenproposed here are laughable, townhomes??? Low density??? There is no way, that the city will allow these places to become neglected. Their prime location, will not allow them to be forgotten, like St James town was.......I am surprised there isn't a save St Jamestown co-alition here yet! Again certainly not all aimed at you?

 

[ttk77]

That certainly wasn't all aimed at you, or your post TTK77, I apologize if it felt that way, it was more a response to months of grumbling, and short sighted monday quarterbacking, people comparing todays construction with other eras, your post was fine, I just love Toronto, and Canada and feel obligated to defend her, cause she might not be perfect, but its the best boat afloat right now, and the folks on this forum need to be reminded of that..... as for City place, the various ideas for it, that have beenproposed here are laughable, townhomes??? Low density??? There is no way, that the city will allow these places to become neglected. Their prime location, will not allow them to be forgotten, like St James town was.......I am surprised there isn't a save St Jamestown co-alition here yet! Again certainly not all aimed at you?

Sorry...you had quoted my post, so I assumed your response was aimed at me.

I certainly hope you're right about the city not letting Cityplace become neglected, but given the differing perspectives of our past and current mayors it isn't too difficult to imagine a situation where that could happen. If the developers don't mix things up with some more human scaled construction, specifically retail and entertainment, I can see the area becoming less desirable to live in compared to many of the newer neighbourhoods that will be going up in the waterfront area. If property values drop because of that, who knows what could happen. I live on Queens Quay and walk through the area often to get up to King st. but it has never been a destination in and of itself, and I don't see a lot of space where these things could be added in, especially if they continue to build more condos.