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Superstar
Canada, China, Toronto, Beijing whatever...id take Canada and Toronto anyday, at least we dont run over children and leave them out to die.
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- Thread starter Mongo
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Canada, China, Toronto, Beijing whatever...id take Canada and Toronto anyday, at least we dont run over children and leave them out to die.
Jonny5
Senior Member
I wasn't aware Beijing had gained sentience and were voicing opinions. Is it a fan of The Kardashians?
adma
Superstar
Actually, your own individual insistence upon this kind of penis-measurement gauge of "importance" makes you, yes, you, yourself more "provincial" than either Toronto or Beijing. Sorta like, uh, pseudo-sophisticated. Kinda like those monster-home teardowns emigres from Beijing/Shanghai/Hong Kong inflicted upon old Vancouver neighbourhoods in the 80s under the assumption that because Vancouver was only a century old rather than a millennium old, the existing built-fabric conditions were "dispensible"...
kkgg7
Banned
Canada, China, Toronto, Beijing whatever...id take Canada and Toronto anyday, at least we dont run over children and leave them out to die.
Well, like a city's quality of life has nothing to do with its buildings, a city's desirability has nothing to do with its global status/importance. You are mixing things together again. Whether people in Beijing left 2 year old girls to die bears absolutely no relationship with how important this city is. Why do you guys always do this kind of illogical digression.
kkgg7
Banned
You should spare some time reading "Economists".
When Europe turns into trouble, they expect Beijing to help, not Ottawa; economists are always talking about RMB replacing USD as a world reserve currency some day, never mentions CAD. Beijing criticizes the US fiscal irresponsibility only a few weeks ago, which was on every major newspaper's front page, Canada probably never dare to confront its sugar daddy like this.
Again, reading more about things happening outside "North America" will really help. The world is change faster than you think and want it to.
Marko
Active Member
I've defended you in this thread so far, but your last post is just wrong. Canada often criticizes and/or confronts the US. There's no question which country is more dominant, but the two share a level of mutual respect that allows for criticism to be taken at face value, or perhaps lead to some delicate diplomatic pissing matches, but not lead to pulling embassies or threatening wars like it would between some neighbor nations.
There's a whole lot good with China and a whole lot bad - I was there again last week - but (to reluctantly give in to the digression) Canada's good far outweighs the bad.
I agree, though, that Beijing is more important globally. There's no question the capital of one of the world's economic powers and most populous countries would hold more sway than Canada, though I would also counter that Canada punches significantly above its weight in this regard - more so lately by showing more backbone in the political sphere and emerging as a leader in economic practices.
There's a whole lot good with China and a whole lot bad - I was there again last week - but (to reluctantly give in to the digression) Canada's good far outweighs the bad.
I agree, though, that Beijing is more important globally. There's no question the capital of one of the world's economic powers and most populous countries would hold more sway than Canada, though I would also counter that Canada punches significantly above its weight in this regard - more so lately by showing more backbone in the political sphere and emerging as a leader in economic practices.
agoraflaneur
Active Member
Good point, I have been scolded. Add Sao Paolo to the list, and Buenos Aires, and Mexico City as was pointed out. It was a very lazy remark.
Basically, my point was this: Europe has already topped out in terms of density, while I don't think Asia has, which is why I believe it to be more of an experiment, because I don't know when urbanization there will stop.
Anyway, your criteria for greatness are not the same as mine, as I don't think cramming people together equals greatness, nor do I wish to live in such crowded areas. NYC is great today because of things that happened at the turn of the century when it was a much much smaller city, and that goes for London and Paris as well. Today it is still great because there isn't another mini NYC right next to it, not to mention ten more in the surrounding areas like in Guangdong or Beijing.
And if you think Europe is as crowded than Asia, ok sure, quote stats to back you up! My lived experience is completely different, and I would stand by it any day. World's largest traffic jam anyone! Governments that tell people when to drive due to overcrowding?! More people cram into the same space in China, at least right now. Ride a Chinese or Japanese subway then go to Paris. Crowds after crowds after crowds in Asia - this is not what you experience in Europe, or even in NYC for that matter.
I'm sorry but your attitude is puzzling. Quoting your "friend's" wealth in Shanghai is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion and as much of a digression as someone pointing out the callous and inhuman treatment that girl was given just outside of Guangzhou. Please, no one here is saying that China is not important - YOU are projecting that, probably because you want it to be much more important than it really is.
Europe and North America did things with far less than half the population of China. Did you know the entire US population in 1920 when cars and much of modern life was being invented was only 106 million? We do NOT need masses to achieve things.
I can't wait until China does more in the world - not to mention India which is rising as well - so don't get me wrong. I also can't wait for it to be more democratic. But your assumption that people are ignorant of Asia is just false. Look at the population of Toronto and Vancouver and tell me we are Eurocentric! We love Asia and can't get enough of it, and the future of Canada will be a fusion of Europe and Asia (including India and South Asia, of course); all worlds will come here to make a home, and that is fine by me. Let's just not sacrifice the environment or our quality of life in the meantime (here's looking at you, megacities). Traffic in the GTA is bad enough as it is!
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MisterF
Senior Member
Why would Sydney have a higher GDP per capita? Australians are no richer than Canadians. Divide the number by population and they're about the same. The state of Toronto's public spaces is because of lack of public spending, not lack of overall money in the city.
Downplay it all you want, but Toronto's GDP is 22nd in the world and higher than any Chinese city (for the moment). Not bad for a city that's 50th in population. Toronto's position in North America says more about the United States than it says about Toronto.
Plenty of economists, businesspeople, and academics around the world put Toronto on equal footing with Beijing. Again, for the moment. But even if they didn't, who cares? Why the need to bring down Toronto every chance you get?
Regardless of everything that you've said, and to take this thread full circle, Toronto's high rise construction is impressive, especially considering it's in an established, developed, medium sized economy and not a huge developing one that's busy catching up.
highlife
New Member
I respect the cultural history of China and its emergence as a world superpower but comments such as this doesn't support your cause.
Yes, money talks but can you safely say China leads or has led the world on human rights such as gay marriage, or religious freedom, or the environment, or technology and biomedical innovation, or transparency/best practices in all aspects of government and business?
Forget Toronto for the moment, (which I think you're using as a punching bag to promote China), will China produce companies such as Apple, Google, or Facebook?
The "importance" of a city or nation is not based on economics alone. People only "listen to Beijing" when they owe them money, or in dire need of investment dollars. But as a human being, I see "importance" of a country that goes beyond monetary clout.
adma
Superstar
If I were a dumb paranoid Yank, I'd suspect that kkgg7 was a plant by the Chinese Communist Party.
Tewder
Senior Member
This kind of says it all about kkgg7...
Anyhow, all the 'west' has to do to balance out growth is to slap tariffs on cheap goods from China, redressing unfair labour and environmental practises there, drying up the international market it relies on. Bring the manufacturing, and jobs, back to North America and see how robust true growth in China has been!
Anyhow, all the 'west' has to do to balance out growth is to slap tariffs on cheap goods from China, redressing unfair labour and environmental practises there, drying up the international market it relies on. Bring the manufacturing, and jobs, back to North America and see how robust true growth in China has been!
Riverdale Rink Rat
Senior Member
Are you reading this on a computer with no bold capability? Go back and read my reply to you. At no time did I mention Beijing. I took exception to your less-than-bright comparisons between Toronto and Lyon/Nice, and I took exception to the fact that you complained about Toronto's weather (as if that made it a less-than-alpha city somehow.)
However, now that you've got up my nose about it, there's plenty of people who think that Toronto/Ottawa/Canada are more important than Beijing in certain ways. It's the Canadian central banker, and the Canadian Finance Minister, that are being consulted on how to handle the euro crisis. It's Canada that's in the G-7. It's Canada that has a very high standard of living, including for farmers, unlike China that has hundreds of millions of subsistence farmers despite its fabulous growth lo, these 30 years. Beijing is already important, and will become substantially more important over the coming century. Neither of those points makes it ready, financially, to come out from behind its yuan peg and join the global financial community (which, right now, is probably a good thing for the Chinese!)
Tewder
Senior Member
There you go talking about those quality of life things again! Don't you know that a powerhouse urban centre is all about tall buildings?!
Until China reforms its political and economic structures its power and growth are but a house of cards...
Until China reforms its political and economic structures its power and growth are but a house of cards...
kkgg7
Banned
You are being unfair about a growing developing country here.
Sure, the West can apparently draw back cheap Chinese imports, and and then produce paper cups, stuffed animals and cotton shirts using their $30 per hour union workers. Sure thing. It saves a lot of domestic jobs. However, why the West has chosen not to do it? because they like free trade? NO, because they are better off this way. It is a win-win situation. Do you have any idea what inflation would have been if the US and Canada hadn't imported tons of cheap products from China in the past 10 years? What your life quality will be if the Sears shirts are $120 instead of $30? If a dozen plastic plates are $20 instead of $1.99?
Slapping tariffs on other countries to protect domestic jobs is easy. But be prepare to eat the consequence. The West was able to enjoy a high standard of living despite their low growth was largely because cheap Chinese imports. Think it through man.
As to the environment. China is doing a horrible job to be honest. The air and water is highly polluted, but I have two arguements here:
1) Developed countries have experienced such phrase as well. remember London was the Capital of Fog once upon a time? Just because you are over that stage doesn't give you the right to be condescending. The difference is only that the world was not that environmental conscient at that time. I am sure the West has produced more pollution and damage to environment, cummulatively, than China has done so far.
In terms of consumption of energy and production of green house gas, the US and Canada leads all other countries including China by tens of miles.
2) China's pollution is so polluted partly because the west has shifted their pollutive industry to China. For example, do you know how much pollution it brings just to make the parts for Iphones in China? OK, the US gives $20 profit for a $500 phone to China, and leaves all related pollution there as well, and then come back and accuse China of polluting the Earth. Smart strategy!
If we really need to trace "how the growth would be without ..." case, let's think about how the West has invaded such a large part of the rest of the world, East Asia South Asian, South East Asia, Latin America, Africa, how they plundered money and resources, pillaged towns, villages and palaces, salughtered lives, and robbed poor countries of their gold, silver and diamond. That's only 150 years ago. Now that the Robbers are civlilized, put away their knives and guns, put on a suite and tie, and thought everyone has forgotten their disgracful robbers history. I guess they can feel comfortable criticizing developing countries of "not being humane"? Don't forget, the British Museum, the Louvre, and Metropolitan are still displaying treasures they robbed 150 years ago.
Sorry I am a bit off topic here. But the western sacrimonious and self-righteous criticism of what others have done wrong is really annoying.
kkgg7
Banned
That I totally agree.
I don't want to talk too much about China vs the West, or the economy, or the politice, since it is a post about construction. However, give other posters the right to post additional relevant and true information although it might hurt some people's feelings and confidence.
One thing people tend to do here is: OK Other cities have much better architecture and a lot more impressive buildings, so what? I would never want to live there because it is polluted, or it is unsafe, or it is conservative or ... on and on. Or something like "cities are not just about buildings, let's compare quality of life". Come on guys, be mature, we are talking about buildings here, not one city is overall better than another city. Can't we tolerate that some cities are doing better in some aspects and have to bring about quality of life and diversity etc everytime Toronto loses in some comparison?