Irishmonk said:
Hmm, some odd remarks here. First, Royal Bank Plaza is certainly not indistinguishable from Telus House, the blueish glass box rising next door to it, or the new snoozers planned further down Bremner. Indeed, despite its shortish stature, RBZ is, arguably, the CBD's most flamboyant tower..

Secondly, the new Southcore boxes aren't so much "ruining" the face of the CBD but blocking it entirely from view at certain choice angles. It doesn't matter how pretty or homely a face is, if something's standing in front of it, it won't be visible. And that's a shame with regards to the highly distinctive southern face of our CBD which consists of an assortment of high quality buildings from different architectural eras that span about 60 years. The incoming row of glass boxes offer nothing new to the mix and merely serve to dilute or obstruct one of the few aesthetically impressive vistas that the city had to offer. The CBD deserves something much better to complement it--something on the order of say.... Absolute. There, I said it.
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thankyou for stating more clearly what I was getting at. that other guy seems to have a bee in his bonnet for some reason... I may also have to quote a recent post by Granny which is a far more scathing opinion on this new district.
 
Frank Godfrey said:
The last line about Torontonians being, " very conservative people ", and this being an, " underlying fact ", is a crock. Try not to use such recieved ideas to support your argument.
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This is funny, as the received ideas I'm arguing against are that money = beauty and boxes = ugly. As for Torontonians being very conservative - it is true. It is not conservativeness in social mores, but in every other aspect of life, Torontonians are deeply conservative. We sometimes use positive words to describe this conservativeness, like "livability" or "politeness" or "reliability." Our skyline reflects this. There can be a beauty in this conservative attitude, but most Torontonians feel deeply embarrassed by it - they want to be seen as flashy and experimental. Hence the annoyance at boxes. If only we'd learn to accept this conservative side of ourselves there'd be less self-flagellating and more appreciation of how this makes us different from New York, and therefore, interesting.
 
parkdalian said:
there can be a beauty in this conservative attitude, but most torontonians feel deeply embarrassed by it - they want to be seen as flashy and experimental. Hence the annoyance at boxes. If only we'd learn to accept this conservative side of ourselves there'd be less self-flagellating and more appreciation of how this makes us different from new york, and therefore, interesting.
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OY! lol
 
Parkdalian said:
I didn't say the buildings were "runing the face" - I was quoting someone else - I was pointing out that from most perspectives they are a) invisible and b) when they are visible, they look pretty much like the rest of the skyline. My point is that there is a huge line being drawn between Southcore and the old Central Business District when there really aint much objective difference. It's all pretty much boxes. The "flamboyance" of the Royal Bank tower is flamboyant in the context of Toronto's skyline, but trust me - not a single Torontonian who is not an architecture fan (or who did not work there) would be able to identify it. As a kid, I certainly never noticed it. Getting worked up because one conservative piece of architecture is blocking our view of another piece of conservative architecture is pretty silly. Particularly since these are not arguments about the relative architectural merits of the building, but the style they are built in - hence the cries for a return to PoMo. I think it's also a fear of acknowledging this basic, underlying fact: Torontonians have been, and continue to be, very conservative people.
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Look at the skyline photos when the T-D Centre was the only major skyscraper. Was the CN Tower a conservative effort at a communications tower? Can cladding a skyscraper with gold be very conservative? What about PoMo? That was radical at one point, a new direction for creative design to create entirely new aesthetics freely referencing any past style. No one wants to "acknowledge" conservatism in Toronto because it's more stereotype than truth. Some people may feel comfort in fitting into the stereotype, that at least they can feel some identity in Toronto because in reality the identity is unstable and developing. Certainly, some elites who shape the city are conservative. But to draw a blanket statement like that is very much detached from the nuances of the city's history, and the significance of certain CBD and downtown buildings in general. We're talking about a generation that obliterated the old in the CBD and replaced it with something radically different. And this was supposedly conservative?
 
From what I've read on other international sites like this, everybody seems to think the city that they live in is conservative. Wherever you go, people don't like change.
 
I too do not buy the "Toronto is conservative" myth. Not only do the already mentioned CN Tower, Royal Bank Plaze and TD Centre indicate no such thing, but the general embrace (or just the act of building) the new City Hall, Ontario Place, Eaton Centre, OCAD, the new additions to the ROM and AGO certainly indicate a city perhaps less conservative then most others.
 
Whatever you are exposed to on a daily basis starts to seem conventional, and conservative. Where are these mythical "non-conservative" cities? Berlin, Hong Kong...?
 
My own two cents: the developers are not building "conservative" buildings for the sake of being conservative, they are building them because they cost the least to build. Building dynamic, innovative buildings costs a lot more money, and the higher resulting psf would hugely reduce the number of potential buyers with no extra profit -- the increase in prices all going to offset higher construction costs.

I am sure that most or all developers would love to build only "iconic", cutting-edge designs, but the unfavorable economics mean that they would risk financial disaster by doing so. As it is, they probably build just as many such buildings as they feel they can safely get away with, given the expected market base for such designs, and their much higher psf.
 
Mongo said:
My own two cents: the developers are not building "conservative" buildings for the sake of being conservative, they are building them because they cost the least to build. Building dynamic, innovative buildings costs a lot more money, and the higher resulting psf would hugely reduce the number of potential buyers with no extra profit -- the increase in prices all going to offset higher construction costs.
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Your explanation is sound. But this purely profit-driven strategy doesn't contribute as much as it should to the communities and should be called out for its results: conservative design. But even where spectacular design isn't necessary, finishing details like materials, entrance canopies, integration of mechanical elements, and architectural lighting could be much better without a significant effect on the bottom line.

I am sure that most or all developers would love to build only "iconic", cutting-edge designs, but the unfavorable economics mean that they would risk financial disaster by doing so. As it is, they probably build just as many such buildings as they feel they can safely get away with, given the expected market base for such designs, and their much higher psf.
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True: not every building in the city can be iconic and cutting-edge. That might not even be desirable as it could look utterly chaotic. But only one developer has produced something cutting-edge in a group of big players. And that project, Absolute, is not even in a prominent location as far as this urban area is concerned. At some of the surest locations like Yonge and Bloor with the highest prices we haven't seen any cutting-edge proposals. If the developers weren't as conservative as they are, each of the big players could have an Absolute of their own. It may be just one in a large portfolio of infill towers, but it would really matter. They can still change. The industry is changing. I encourage them to mature and bring on the design.

Doesn't this contradict my "Toronto isn't conservative" rant? No. A group of developers isn't speaking for the interests and ambitions of the people of Toronto at the moment.
 
I also wonder if maybe it's a monopoly? If there were world wide contests where architects around the world were allowed to compete, we would get better results like absolute. However, I think most builders want to get establish and famous architects and I think most seem to be Canada based rather than try an unknown or foreigner. I must say Cityzen has been pretty daring with buildings like L tower (which got modified unfortunately) and Absolute.
 
Parkdalian said:
Can you think of materials more facelessly corporate than gold or marble, particularly when they are lathered on not in a form of a decoration, but as the composition of the outer windows and walls? In these contexts, they do not say "beauty"; all I hear is "MONEY." But then again, I think some people on this site get the cries of "MONEY" and "beauty" confused; hence all the concern about "Cheapening."
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Umm, blue curtain walls? Watch The Meaning of Life. But these towers that we're getting aren't even gloriously inaccessible mirrored monoliths, just some boring office buildings filling up empty space. The marble and the golden windows are both decoration and necessary cladding...in buildings without outer windows and walls, people tend to plummet to their death every time they roll their chair back from their desk or adjust the blinds, and it's also hard to heat them in winter.

I'm sorry that you can't tell the difference between these towers and something like Commerce Court or the TD Centre, let alone Royal Bank Plaza or FCP. Maybe get your aesthetic-economic synesthesia checked out at Princeton-Plainsboro Teaching Hospital. Bremner's towers are bland and thoughtless individually and worse than that collectively.
 
Tulse said:
But stay out of the MRI -- that thing always causes problems...
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No, he'll need an MRI. We'll also have to induce a heart attack, and start him on antibiotics, chemotherapy, steroids, and interferon simultaneously. The only thing we can rule out right now is lupus.
 
Anyone seen any movement on the site as of yet? I remember the groundbreaking was recent, but was curious if anything had been moved offsite so prep and excavation could begin?

Thanks and Happy Holidays to all!
 
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